Authentic Tai chi?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Kframe, Aug 19, 2014.

  1. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member



    You're missing the main point, naturally. Boxercise is fit for purpose, it's success and benefits are not based on successful boxing, it's the same with health taiji.

    One of the main things you are forgetting is that a large part of the movement principles in taiji come from qi gong. You can make it physically harder or softer - just like boxercise.

    The results are better strength, flexibility, fitness, wellbeing. fighting doesn't (have to) come into it. Other than on rudimentary/ periphery levels, like any other health or fitness program will have a knock on effect to your other activities.

    No one is disputing that some taiji is better than others, but to be fair it makes little difference if you fight with it or not. No form ever made anyone a fighter. To think otherwise is the real kicker in all this; that the level of "martialness" inherent in a form has any real bearing or meaning on someone's learned ability to fight.

    Mostly, it's the blind leading the blind.
     
  2. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member



    I'm not sure it (The whole post) had a real direction or thrust more of a hodgepodge of mini points that you thought of as you went along. On their own many I agreed with which is why I didn't bother to quote them.

    For me the post was thrown off course by something at the beginning I could not reconcile. Please don't be offended that I disagreed with it!

    In so far as a bigger, clearer picture (or point) emerging from these disparate points, not so much. We all need a starting point for discussion, I took your statement and used it that way - I wouldn't look too much into it If I were you.

    I used it as a starting point for what I wanted to throw out there for discussion, it was bothering me from the first time I read it - like an itch I had to scratch.
     
  3. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    You really do have a knack of talking down to people, don't you? :rolleyes:

    The most obvious difference is that Boxercise isn't sold as boxing. If someone advertises their Taiji class as being for health only then that is fine. And people will gain health benefits, as with any form of excercise. But if the teacher only has a limited knowledge of Taiji then the health benefits will not be as great because they may well lack fundamental knowledge of correct structure and so forth. That's the real point.

    The bolded part is absolutely spot-on, in my opinion. The martial postures and movements contained within the form can be applied with knowledge and practise. But far more important is using the form to learn to 'feel' and to relax. Those abilities translate directly into our pushing hands practise, and are more fundamental to our Taiji skill.

    The 'martial aspect' doesn't in itself give any greater health benefit than if it was absent... except that the forms were created by people with a very good understanding of what they were doing. They created forms which contain lots of martial bits and peices, and which IF DONE CORRECTLY will give a number of health benefits. As you said, it ties in with what we do when we practise Chi Kung. But as soon as you start watering down the form or doing bits incorrectly because you don't understand them properly, then you start to reduce the overall benefit that the student can gain. That's the point: not the 'martialyness' of the form, but the teacher's level of real understanding. And that's why I suspect that a lot of 'health' Taiji is flawed: because the teacher has very limited knowledge.
     
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Here's a zinger; that's not a real point for me. :D The fact that some people and or products are better than others is really a foregone conclusion. This "real" point goes for all forms and teachers of taiji as well as soccer, boxercise and god knows what.
     
  5. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Sure, my guns are blazin today man! :woo:
     
  6. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Sure, if you were doing some watered-down 'health' Taiji and were enjoying it and getting health benefits then there is absolutley nothing wrong with that. It would ceratinly be better than doing nothing at all. I always think it's a pity that everyone can't be doing something that would give them the greatest possible benefit, but that would never happen in the real world. I don't see anthing wrong with pointing out the difference though!
     
  7. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Nope, not missing the point- just disagreeing with you. The point I am making is boxercise is aerobics. It isn't boxing. Health Tai Chi isn't really Tai Chi, IMO.

    And I don't believe you get a lot of the health benefits if you don't understand the martial aspects- as I already explained. I don't want to be redundant, so I won't explain why again.

    Forms are one aspect of Tai Chi and I believe in the value of forms as one aspect of training the martial aspect. But of course it is only one aspect. Which is why I have repeatedly discussed the need for non resistant push hands- as well as drills etc. All are pieces of the puzzle that - put together -make one able to use TCC martially.








     
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I'm confused.. The whole gist of my opening post was how there is a distinction between health and martial taiji. Everything you are saying or arguing is about ignoring such a distinction and treating them as though they are still/ or should be one and the same thing.

    Therefore Your disagreement is based on unsound premises from the start.
    Whether you get the same benefits or not depend on the teaching. Pre supposing that product x is lesser than another is just an assumption, not a given fact. If you factor in the differing purpose there's no reason or requirement to expect equality.

    Going to a good teacher, will get you good taiji for health, going to a crappy martial taiji teacher will get you crappy taiji full stop.

    Your conclusion is merely based on an asumption that you can't have a good taiji for health teacher who isn't good at "martial taiji".

    No real support for it, just an assumption. I gave an example of a program largely taught for health - a proposal that it can be taught well for health. Just one example picked from memory, I'm sure there are others to be found.

    The fact you can find poor taiji for health in of itself is neither here nor there, it only proves the obvious, something I think we all knew already.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  9. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    It's only really a difference if you hold that it's a false distinction. When you stop doing that it ceases to matter because the standards are different due to different purposes.

    No one expects a typical boxercise class to resemble a boxers training regime. So no one should expect the standard of taiji for health to be one and the same as the best of the best martial taiji.

    But there's nothing wrong with having something to aim for!
     
  10. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Except there are legions of who thinking the dancing they do will make them great fighters and actually look down on people who do TaiJi for martial purposes. I've met more than a few people that argue tooth and nail about knowing about they do despite never doing free style push hands, let alone sparing. One guy even told me that Chen style was "doing it wrong."

    It matters because people who train for health may be roped into thinking that they can use it for self-defense despite not ever have done any alive training.
     
  11. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Well... no one's come up with a cure for stupid yet. I don't cater or pander to that market in any way shape or form, or take their views seriously at all, just people who have some intelligence between their ears. But sure if you want to let others ignorance influence you, then fine, that's on you of course.

    You just have to give people with no credibility, no credibility. It is that simple; at least for me. You can't cater to or think you should make a stand against ignorance and stupidity - it's futile and a waste of time. Better to leave them behind swimming around in their own folly.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  12. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    That's a rather elitist view to take. Many people don't know the difference because they haven't had enough exposure to taiji (or martial arts in general) to know the difference. That doesn't mean that they are stupid.

    I don't let other people's ignorance influence me, however that doesn't me that I am going to deny that there are ignorant people.

    If you don't really care about what people think about taiji then why even post on here? I'm interested in talking about TaiJi with everyone, even the ones that I adamantly disagree with. I might even learn something from them, and hopefully they might reconsider their own opinions.

    "Everyone you will ever meet knows something you don't." - Bill Nye




    Totally disagree. Opening people's minds and educating them so that they can inoculate themselves against charlatans is ethical. If they decide not to accept your idea's, then that is on them. Withholding your idea's and not taking a stand against what you know to be "stupid" is quite selfish. If you have an opportunity to expand someone's horizons, then you should take it instead of just writing them off as stupid.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  13. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Well look, I'm not saying you shouldn't try to educate those who don't know and want to learn.

    But if someone is standing in front of you unwilling to empty their cup and accept they are wrong about something there's no point trying to help people who don't or won't listen.

    I have no duty to such people whatsoever.

    We are all at different stages in life - I don't have the time and inclination for those people I described. I'm not going to get too far with someone who won't accept the fact that a form won't make them a fighter.

    I am over 40, I have a business, a wife, a family, a hobby or two, those are my priorities. Not some dumbass who thinks they'll get magical fighting powers from a tai chi form.

    If you want to give your time that way that's fine. We don't all have to treat people the same way. I will tell people what I think politely and support it thoroughly of course if it comes up. From there it's their choice if they want to ignore it, if they choose that it's on them.

    Are they paying me - if yes, then I will of course send them away politely because I can't help them. If they are not, then I have no duty (beyond being straight and polite) to bang my head against a wall for someone unwilling to accept a simple truth.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  14. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I find it all bit of a moot argument to be honest WP. If someone tells me they can fight having only ever learnt form, it will be very easy to test.
    We have a spar, I throw them around and hit them at will. They either accept they were wrong and we move on, or they leave.

    What could be more simple ?
     
  15. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Of course but that should be decided after you talk with them for a little bit. Writing them off before you even talk to them about it is just judgmental. It doesn't take long either.

    It takes zero time to give people the benefit of the doubt.

    I never said you did. My point which you missed, was to not do the head banging preemptively. What you don't seem to be getting is that many people don't know the difference between martial TaiJi and health TaiJi, because they haven't had the exposure to it. Again it's not because they are stupid or willfully ignorant. And you really shouldn't make that call until you've at least talked to them for 2 minutes.
     
  16. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Depending on whose origin story you want to believe; Historically speaking a large part of where Taiji comes from is whatever the Chen family was doing for martial arts prior to Chen Wangting and many believe that was a variation of Shaolin Long Fist, take into account that Chen Wangting was a military officer during the end of the Ming dynasty and you get a fighting art with qigong added in. Now if you go with the Zhaobao people...well heck their still taking on anyone who wants to tell them they can't fight.
     
  17. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    To be fair I think you just read what I wrote and made assumptions. I have been doing taiji for over 12 years and have interacted with all types in the taiji world.

    Not once have I judged anyone who I did not talk with for a while and understood where they were coming from. That's what my post is based on. You just took it as an instant dismissal which is far from anything near the truth of it.

    Seriously, you're talking about giving benefit of the doubt, the irony! :)
     
  18. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    You see, I thought we were talking about people who will argue tooth and nail. clearly we are starting from a place where I have heard and understood their position. I'm way past "arguing" about such things.

    No need for me to argue when I can just wrestle them or hand them a pair of gloves is there.
     
  19. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    You said they were stupid for not knowing the difference. That's a judgment. Whether you made it right away or not is largely irrelevant.

    I'll repeat it once more. Ignorant =/= stupid.

    As per your second post(78).

    We are talking about that, however that is not the only thing I was/am talking about. The discussion shifted a little when you called them a bunch of idiots.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  20. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I think you are twisting my words a little to serve yourself - you're welcome to try do so but it won't help.

    I do think wilfully ignorant people are being stupid. But that's all, I have used some names like "dumbass" for certain things and stand by it in the context I wrote it, but I re read my posts and I haven't used the term "bunch of idiots", yet.

    We established that I called them stupid because they wilfully insist they can fight after just doing some form; please tell me how that does not fit with your definition of stupid?
    "Arguing tooth and nail" (your words) about something you don't know about or have not tested IS "stupid". And in reply I said "there's no cure for stupid". People do act stupidly whether they themselves are "stupid" or not. You need to tell the difference sometimes.

    Obviously you have taken offence to my attitude towards certain things and my descriptions, I really don't care. You come across overly sensitive about it, just deal with it really. It's not personal, so don't take it personally.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014

Share This Page