Authentic Tai chi?

Hi. Im floating in the void right now. After my dojo failed I decided to try out other arts. I have tried TKD and while I have a few reservations regarding what I consider a useless sparring format, I know ill enjoy my self none the less.

However I am not committing to anything till I try a few different things.

Next on my list of arts to try is a Tai Chi place in a near by town. http://www.changingdragon.com/ They claim to be authentic. I have talked to there Sifu and he says they teach application as they go along. The form the do is 140 movement form.(I think that is the proper term)

I asked about more hard style traditional sparring(like I am used to ) and the way he talked about it was that it was more like light sparring.(as opposed to hard heavy contact sparring)

This is the only tai chi place in my area that is even remotely martial in nature. While there are some in Indy, that is not really a feasible drive to make.

So what do you guys think of his curriculum? Do you know of him or his teacher?

I will be dropping in on Wednesday for a free class, is there any thing I should be looking for?

Since Im not getting any younger, im open to trying anything at this point. I am wanting to step out of the mma mind set but I still want a real martial art with practical usage.

Thanks all for your input.

 

KFrame I cannot help you if they are legit or not but I really feel for you with dojo closings and having a hard time finding a system that you enjoy training in. Good luck my friend!

 

I would look at the "Yi - intention". If people train Taiji for

- combat, their body will show their "Yi - intention". Their eyes focus will be on their "major" hand (or "major" foot). Their body will express how their power is generated and delivered.
- health, they will have zombie eyes without focus. Their body will be in meditation mode. It will be hard for them to convince you that their body movement can truly generate any power and also be able to deliver it.

You have to ask yourself, "Do I want to train Taiji for combat, or do I want to train Taiji for health?"

Look at this picture and use your own judgment.

 

Youknowwho, I get the feeling you don't think that this place is going to be very martial in nature.. That picture didn't inspire me either. He made it sound like they did application when I talked to him.

Ill still show up for the class, ill atleast experience something different.

Looks like ill be trying out the wing chun/jkd place after all...

Edit to add. He did say that most there were doing it for health reasons. However he did say that he taught application as they went along. I wonder if martial tai chi even exists any more... Shame I did want to try something different..

 

Agree with YKW and aaradia - stay well away.

The website is most definately geared towards the 'tai chi for health and wellbeing' brigade.
Lots of talk of relaxation, internal energy etc. Nothing about martial function, save a small half sentence "The ancient Chinese martial art of Tai Chi has not only self-defense qualities but also numerous day-to-day mind, body, and spirit benefits that can help people of all ages."

Again, the focus seems to be on the health, rather than the martial.

Then we get onto their videos - a quick look here shows us that their form does not contain martial intent.
Their stances are often too narrow, there is no discernible intention behind any of the movements,

https://flic.kr/p/7WgaKE

And a look at their syllabus: http://www.changingdragon.com/art/curriculum.pdf

Doesn't say anything about applications.
Lots and lots of qigong, lots of form, several sets of push-hands... And at the most advanced levels "free sanshou" - although I know what I would mean by that, I doubt my idea would tally with theirs.

Personally, I wouldn't even bother with a free class. Fancy club t-shirts, but nothing underneath..

 

I don't think there is a direct link, but one of the articles you can find there talks about the previous sifu, someone named Robert Sbarge. Here is a article about him. http://m.kpcnews.com/columnists/dav...aa1-64db-50d1-8703-2e4e7eef41b0.html?mode=jqm

Thanks for the directness and truth. I truly want to try something different, but I wont go to a place with bad instruction. He claims to be TCC but as you said you don't see it. With as much training as he has, how can his own practice as bad as you describe it?

Thanks for the insight guys I really appreciate it. Saves me a lot of time and wasted effort.

 

AARADIA that was a great video. Your right, the movements on your video did look better then the video's on there website.

I hope someday I can train real martial tcc, however I don't think that time is right now. Sadly while im young enough to do it.

 

Hi,

If you're looking for martial then you could do worse that ask the question here: RobB, please don't use MAP as a recruiting tool for another forum.. Lots of martially-oriented IMA practitioners there who might be able to recommend someone in your area.

I'm in the UK myself so pretty useless in that regard - although I agree with previous posters about the club you have asked about.

Good luck with your search.

Cheers

Rob

 

Kframe

I may have missed it, I am not seeing very well at the moment but I see nothing about Robert Sbarge or Greg Vick that tells me lineage or style for that matter and the postures I saw on the webpage and the associated PDF do not give me a warm fuzzy.

Lineage is not a proof of a good school but it can tell you if there is a possibility that they know the curriculum and might actually know the martial side

As for the martial aspect the word "Combat" means nothing. You would not hear my shifu (Yang Style) ever use the word combat in anything he teaches and he does teach the martial side and I have yet to hear anyone in the Chen 19th generation use it either and they all know the martial side of it (trained with one who crushed small stones with his foot, not the guy you want stepping on your foot in an SD situation). Also I have seen more than one "Combat Taiji" School/teacher that only knows the Beijing 24 form and possible the 48 form but they have no idea how Taiji actually works as a martial art. They are doing Taiji forms with Karate applications, too much power and too much strength is used in apps, it is a valid SD, but it is not Taijiquan

As a matter of fact you walk in off the street and ask my shifu if he teachers the marital side he will tell you it is for health. But if you train with him a bit you will find he knows it and teaches it.

EDIT: If you are looking for authentic you need to know lineage and it has to show a direct path to Chen, Yang, Wu/Hao, Wu, Sun or Zhaobao. Or if you want to get really technical (and depending on whose origin story you want to believe) IT has to go back to Chen or Zhaobao and telling me it comes form Zhang Sanfeng means nothing unless they trained a lot at Wudang...and even then I would question that claim.

 

Don't get me started on Zhang Sanfeng.:evil:

 

While you may be looking to learn Tai Chi from a martial perspective, there is also plenty of benefits to learning Tai Chi from a health perspective. Tai Chi improves coordination, balance, breathing, and internally it helps with blood circulation and anxiety. Improving on these five aspects of your health will already make you a better fighter overall.

Sparring and grappling are considered yang energy development. It is also good to have yin energy development, meaning slow movements like qi gong, tai chi, meditation, etc. For those days where you trained really hard with sparring, doing tai chi is a great way to still do something when you're especially not motivated to practicing anything IMHO.

On a final note: ask if they do push hands or ta lu in their school. THAT is an essential foundation before learning how to use Tai Chi for fighting.

 

I would ask if they do free style push hands and when you can start it.

If they give you the old "After 10 years of forms training" then find a different teacher.

 

If they say anything other than "when you are ready to start it" then I would find another teacher.

 

Shouldn't get me started either

Zhang Sanfeng..... well that would depend on which one

The one mentioned in the 1650s in the “Epitaph of Wang Zhengnan , the one from the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368) as stated by Sun Lutang, the ones that were mentioned by Xu Yusheng who associated the name Zhang Sanfeng with at lest 10 different people but ultimately puts Zhang Sanfeng in the Sung Dynasty (969-1126) and who had hundreds of disciples in Shaanxi, or the Zhang Sanfeng born in 1247 during the Southern Sung Dynasty (1127-1279) and then there is another author that puts him in the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644). Or would that be Zhang Sanfeng the Taoist, the Shaolin Master, the Warrior, or the Confucian by various rather well trained and reputable Chinese writers that were writing “the facts” about Zhang Sanfeng…based on hearsay and myth.

Or Zhang Sanfeng who created taiji by watching a snake and a bird fight. or the cave; by being led by a mysterious light into a cave where he found 2 golden snakes and a book that gave him the idea for taijiquan. Or the Zhang Sanfeng who took from the Yellow Emperor and Lao Tzu to devise taiji.

I too have an issue with the whole Zhang Sanfeng thing

My teacher would likely tell you no, or ask you what your talking about if you showed up and asked him..... but we do multiple push hands drills and free style too :evil:

But it did not take 10 years to get there, it took the long form and basic push hands drills and then....free style...

 

They're all the same one.
'Longevity breathing' and all that :hat:

 

But of course, he was an immortal who was the Taoist, Shaolin, Warrior, Confucian pal of the Yellow Emperor and Lao Tzu who like to watch snakes and a birds fight, and on occasion was seen to be hanging out in caves with golden snakes and reading books book…his one flaw seemed to be that he was easily distracted by shinning objects (aka mysterious lights)

 

What I mean by to old, is to old to actually use the martial skills from TCC effectively while im young and healthy.