Authentic applied taiji

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Fire-quan, Aug 15, 2008.

  1. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well, looks pretty real to me. The other guy is an American champion wrestler - in the past - from what I've read.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs"]YouTube[/ame]
     
  2. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Nice, is it a demo or is it like randori?
     
  3. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    The only info I have comes from here:

    http://www.emptyflower.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5539

    That , to me, is the only authentic taiji application I think I've ever seen. Obviously, we don't know how much the other guy was resisting, but it looks spot on with usual training resistance level for that kind fo training to me. That release of force looks completely authentic - no question.

    Chen Bing is a nephew of CXW - not to be confused, I think, with Chen Bin - Chen Zheng Lei's son - but I could be wrong.
     
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Really good stuff.

    But this sort of "authentic application" is seen all the time in p/h competitions (just not as clean looking) & I would think training of 'free pushing'.

    The Chen guys are pretty good with it.
    This guy has great power and skill and has a high level for sure Not to take anything away from it, but it looks cleaner and more impressive than what you would see in regular p/h comps, at the end of the day it not competition and he's in a seminar learning situation with the teacher rather than the regualar class training you'd do with your classmates say.i'm sure he could give him a harder time of it. At a guess he looks like maybe he's putting up 50-60% resistence, here. But I think the result wouldn't be that different if he put up 100% just messier.

    Good stuff for sure, very impressive.:hat:
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2008
  5. CFT

    CFT Valued Member

    Looks good to me though I have no wrestling or Taiji background. None of the loopy pseudo-acrobatics in response to the jing release from push-hands. Just looks like standing grappling.

    The telling thing is that the Taiji instructor is smaller than his opponent who looks like he is resisting. Then he is throwing the guy around with considerable energy.
     
  6. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    When he pushes the guy at 22 seconds, I think that is a hugely impressive feat - I'd be impressed if he pushed a dead weight like that, I have to say - and it must be getting close to twice his own body weight. That, to me, is one of the few examples of authentically special Chinese martial arts skill I've ever seen.

    I think what is mostly different with Chen Bing is his attitude - there you have a man on a mission. Good for him.
     
  7. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    What i like is that if you saw two guys in a judo gym training at that level you'd think, yeah, that's the kind of training level you want to see. Hmmm... there again, I'd like to see him against a judo guy his own size!
     
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Have you seen the clips of the US Chen Man Ching guy (Di Napoli) who went to the Chen village p/h tournies some time back .. ?

    Their faces where a picture - dude cleaned up. Inevitable there were people saying he was a greco roman wrestler etc..

    I mean the weak CMC style beating the mighty gongfu of Chen!! Who would Adam and Eve it :D
     
  9. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    I think Chen, like everything now, has to accept that it's part of a wider world. One thing you read constantly in kung fu forums is people focussing on who they can beat - whether on a personal or stylistic level. Whereas the cream of the cream seem to focus on who they can't beat - who is the next level/what skills do they need to acquire to step up in to the next level - same as in all top flight sports. Even if we don't want to beat those people actually, in a cage fight, to me, still, exploring and researching is what keeps the art "alive" even on a personal enjoyment level.

    It reminds me of the way people used to call Latin a perfect language. It was only perfect once it was dead - once every native speaker was gone, and there was no one left to change it. I think wushu/kung fu is often, accidentally, treated as a dead art - i.e. as if all the people who were allowed to evolve it are dead centuries ago. Chen, like all arts, needs men - or women - who can go on to the next stage - the world stage - and that will take some revision to approach, deal with, and research new skills I should think.

    Loss is education, in my view.
     
  10. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Zhao Dao Xin, I think in one of the untranslated parts of his interview, says that the Chinese like to think of Chinese martial arts as the highest level in the world, when in reality, the opposite is true by all accepted measurements - i.e. actual fight competitions, where they're one of the lowest in the world - especially at that time. And he says that they (the Chinese) are so afraid of letting go of that conceit that they'd rather hide away from the world than lose and learn and grow.

    Still, that's all changing now of course with Art of War.

    I wonder sometimes, even in myself, how much of training is about image over truth?
     
  11. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    When borrowing force and at the same time having someone off balanced it's sometimes surprising how spectacular a well placed throw, "push" can be.

    In my one and only excursion into moving step comp i was thrown spectacularly through the air, i thought I was superman for a second - i kid you not. It was the one highlight in what was basically a stalemate of a match up. I went for the win toward the end to push him out & very slightly over commited myself - that's all it takes. Woosh.

    Amen to that.
     
  12. CFT

    CFT Valued Member

    Slightly off topic ... but that is why the Olympic judo looks so negative, everyone is too nervous to over commit.
     
  13. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member


    Which I guess shows that Cheng's teachings aren't any weaker than any of the others.Just that not unlike the other sub-systems there's only a few with skill,as opposed to the multitudes without.
     
  14. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    I must say I'm impressed with Chen Bing's vids. I look forward to seeing more of his stuff in the future.
     
  15. Just Guess

    Just Guess Valued Member

    Well it's the Olympics, one of the two biggest competitions in Judo, where reputations are made and world champions can go home without a medal. It's actually more a fault of the current rules. If you can get slightly ahead in points all you have to do is stall and look like you're attacking until the end of the match. I don't like it personally. There's a difference between fighting to win and fighting to not lose.
     
  16. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    That is an impressive video but I'm not sure how much I buy it. I don't mean to suggest that it's completely fake either just that the reactions do kind of give the impression of a certain degree of over compliance. Which isn't uncommon in any seminar demonstration in any style, which this seems to be.
     
  17. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned


    I'm inclined to agree, whilst it is still very impressive and while there is resistance, I wonder how much resistance.
     
  18. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    But but there's no fajin in the form, it's slow, limp wristed, high stance, short. Wheras you only have to LOOK at Chen FORM and SEE it is the R££L MARTIAL shizbomb.



    You need to peddle that jackanory elsewhere bro, sheesh :evil:
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2008
  19. Just Guess

    Just Guess Valued Member

    I don't have any doubts that these could be pulled off against full resistance, even though they probably wouldn't look nearly as spectacular. I've pulled off something similar to the third throw several times in Judo practice. The first and second throw are essentially the same and are actually very similar to one of the favorite throws of Kyuzo Mifune.
     
  20. apprentice

    apprentice Valued Member

    Are we talking about Proffesor Chen Man Cheng? Who had a studio in New York? The one who taught a form similar to yang but with changes, such as elliminating alot of the techniques that repeat in the yang long form?

    If so, very interesting. I had heard there was much heated debate over him and his style. But as the taiji world is all new to me, this thread is the first time I've ever seen it, and know little about it.

    If this is who we are talking about, please educate me. Why is his style so hottly debated?
     

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