Arnis Escrima Kali FMA?(no not again, don't worry!)

Well, I do Inayan System Of Eskrima... but generally I just call it FMA, as most people just don't know what the hell you're talking about.

 

This is why I tend not to use the term kali now. I have nothing but respect for Guro Inosanto. (He's the one who inspired me to investigate FMA in the first place.) But there are so many terms that seem to occur solely in JKD circles. I try to use the more "universal" FMA terms. So I'll use "pangamot" or "mano mano" before I'll use "panantukan." Or "sikaran" before "pananjakman." Etc.

As for "kino mutai", that's anybody's guess.

 

I hear you on that one. And yes, what is kino mutai???? anyone?

And Kamot Lihok joined to gether to make 'Kali' "Snigger" a Pinoy from Cebu gave me a very funny translation of that one "Snigger".

Best regards

Pat

 

If We're talking about personal choices and not Historical correctness then I offer the explanaition of Tuhon Gaje as to why he choses to use Kali as it is today as ka being a pre-fix to most Filipino terms compared to Arnis and eskrima being very much a coined Spanish term. I'm not an English major so I use pre-fix but such terms as "Ka" Kataas taasan, Kagalanggalangan, kalibogan, ka- kanta, kalibo, Katipunan, Ka! Ka! Ka! So why don't we just call it Ka? lol
I can see where he's coming from on that point. Still for the very reasons Diego pointed out, Arnis, the more popular term has a stigma attached to it. But I believe it's just a matter of time when Kali will be the more popular term in the Philippines too. With numerous internet pages of FMA and the multi media world we live in , it's a matter of a push for the younger generation to surf the net about the ancetral fighting arts and be informed about the different interpretations and ideas reagarding their arts.

The proliferation of the term Kali abroad and the more open mindedness of foreigners to mix and match arts resulting in Hybrid or mixed SouthEast Asian systems have been repackaged and brought back to the Philippines either by the Manongs or Instructors coming back from worldwide seminars or the foreign students going to the Philippines to learn more from the motherland and bringing with them their own knowledge obtained abroad.

 

From an interview of Master Yuli Romo from the recent FMA Digest:

FMADigest: What can you say about Kali as the origin of the FMA?
Master Yuli Romo: Oh that! Buhat-buhat ra na nila. (They made it all up.)

FMADigest: Who are they?
Master Yuli Romo: I can tell you who they are, but never mind including it in your article. You know, it's purely business sense. And I don't care at all if they call it kalidraman, kalirongan, or even kalibanga (diarrhea in cebuano), hahaha! Even Ned told there's Kali in the US (boisterous laughter followed.

FMADigest: What? Where?
Master Yuli Romo: Cali-fornia! Hahaha!

FMADigest: So you don't believe that kali is the mother of eskrima and as they say it was an invention of the moros?
Master Yuli Romo: Absolutely not! The Moros don't need eskrima! All they depend on are a few slashes, hit and run and that's all.

 

sounds consistent with what other senior ilustrisimo guys have told me. one said that tatang never cared whgat they called it. for him it was "laro".

 

"Laro" literally means PLAY, but when an expert 'plays' eskrima, it is anything but playful.

About the comment that maestro Yuli Romo made about the Moros having only a few slashes in their arsenal, I think he was only kidding. Maestro Yuli is well-versed in some Moro Silat he picked up when he once worked in Zamboanga City. He must have known that Silat is a far more sophisticated art than just a hit-and-run affair. Maestro Yuli is known to be a joker, and sometimes journalists make mistakes about his comments.

If anyone goes to Muslim Mindanao (supposedly the homeland of the elusive KALI), they will find there is no KALI practised among the natives. If this poll was taken among the Moro people, they won't be able to give a definite answer since they don't call their martial art Kali, Arnis, Eskrima or FMA.

 

Pfft next you guys will be claiming there's no South East Asian art called "Maphilindo Silat"

 

I find it interesting that a practitioner at that level is not that bothered about hanging a name on what he does. This was one of my first impressions of FMA, but I thought I might be wrong.

I find that with TMAs there seems to be a need to prove a root and a bonafide history before much value can be placed on the art (thanks Hollywood). The FMA seem to concern themselves with effectiveness of technique rather than get too bogged down with history.

This is not to say that having an historic knowledge is not important, but it seems to be treated with only as much regard as is needed. I for one find this approach refreshing and find it allows me to concentrate on effectiveness.

I think that the FMAs might be at an advantage in this respect because so many often unrelated islands and peoples have caused the more superfluous elements of history to be too clouded for a definitive answer. That many of these techniques are still in use today also holds a deep fascination for me.

This is my current take on the matter, but if you guys feel differently then I would love to hear!

 

Hear ! Hear!

Well put soon, Kali, Arnis or eskrima- in a coutnry with hundreds of dialects it's just words. What matters most is the "Tangible" techniques. Not words , tags or classifications. There's to much blah blah blah as to who is right or wrong, as to who's better etc etc...Just Train and let that be your tangible, concrete evidence of a true effective fighting art. I see so many so called Historians who make too much noise from the peanut gallery and can't even hold a stick! If for anything, what information is passed on about the History of the system or artform passed along to you form your Manong should be treated with honor and respect, These are their beliefs that fuel their art form that they so graciously pass on to you.
Does anyone here ever question the validity of the stories told to them by their Manongs or Guros in to their face or do they just freely discuss their disbelief behind their backs? Just curious.

AraY!, Agay! , Ouch! yup these techniques that you say came from the kalibog Prince hurt! be it Kali, Anris or eskrima, These I can use to defend myself, those writen words, articles or documents are only good for me to roll into an impact weapon it's not gonna save my life in a fight . Call it whatever you want but remember that to question the stories of your elder can be seen as disrespectful. The FMa were never thought to be taught as a school of an organized or commericalized system of fighting. It was taught on a need to know or survive basis from family to close circles. Many may have used tall stories to certain individuals to keep focused or develop confidence on certain things and were meant simply for those individuals but as it is must have been passed on as fact. Oral hsitory was part of this not Historical correctness. More importance was on the effectiveness right? Honor that story or reflection of the origins given to you that can't be proven or DISPROVEN . Just my sentimental thoughts on hearing people put down stories of our Manongs or Guros take on their Martial History. Indeed they may be caught with a tall story. how many times have you re told events and for the sake of the art of colorful story telling may have added al little spice?

 

Actualy, a lot of the points raised about kali is valid. I've heard of people who used to call themselves Arnisadors, but when they moved tot the states, they became Kali practitioners. They said it just made better business sense.

And a lot of guys are right about it just being words. But words do have power. What you call yourself and your art influences what you do and what you think. So I think it's important to talk about it.

On the note that names or words are not so important. I've found that it's more true with Arnis than with other arts from other countries. Very often, in my school, we know the moves but not the names of the moves. Very often, when we search the web for FMA we would see a move and say "oh, so that's what they call it!". This of course is compared to other arts, particularly the jap and chinse arts, which are obsessed with naming every motion

 

Of course there is an art called Maphilindo. We are just waiting for MAlaysia, PHILippines and INDOnesia to unite under one government. All martial arts will be called KaRNi Skrima SiTao, after Kali, arnis, eskrima, silat, kuntao. One day, foreigners will translate this term as meat, ice-cream and beans.

 

History handed down by mouth is what screwed up the history of FMA however, Master YUli Romo isn't one to talk about politics or history that no one can prove it's precise origin. Whats true and what isn't will never be known. Rather than dable with different versions of it's history, he doesn't really care about something he himself doesn't know about but instead only cares about here and now.

I am not surprised by his responses. He's a straight forward guy who calls it as he see's it. You guys should try to get w/ Master Romo. One of the true FMA practitioners of both the old and new era.

 

Yes I question all the time, after all that is what supposedley makes us the higher species in the animanl kingdom, If you ask many of the Manongs I have trained with, they will all say one thing. O'Malley speaks his mind. But hey I know what your saying, there are a lot more that keep quiet in front of the Manongs only to talk behind their backs. I personally think that is wrong.

Best regards

Pat

 

Maybe in the west this is okay but not in the Philippines and not by a long shot. By question I mean declare your misbelief in what they say. Did you do this to them? I seriously doubt it. I doubt if any of you would do this because it would be a sign of disrespect and in my culture it is like a challenge, with cooler heads the Manongs would just nod and smile but goodbye! "Hey this valuable knowledge I pass on to you and you question me? With hotter heads their seniors would blast you immediately. I know because I have been there did that . Learning this art is a priveledge, and to many practitioners something sacred and not just a commercialized art for sale . testosterone and weapons don't quite mix as well. We amongst ourselves already break out in certain fights for lesser disagreements , you think tactless foreigners would be treated different? There is tradition, culture and a body count. We honor those who have gone through allot to preserve and pass on their knowledge to us. So big deal if Manog wants to say he caught a shark wne in fact it was a shark...shar stories are more exciting! Yes there are instructors who will continue to teach, but if once felt slighted will now view you differently. You have lost favor for higher understanding in their system and they will hold back. Why? because in our culture we respect the elders right or wrong, To question the validity on anything can put them in an awkward position or their forefathers or teachers. Yes you can formulate your own answers but this is how we are as a people. You are the student, they the teacher, talk less listen more, If you question, be ready to back it up or leave the school for insolence. This may not be right when questioning is part of knowledgeable growth to search for the truth but there are some things as culture where truth is not as important as respect and save of face. Galang or respect can be viewed differently in the West. Just thought I would share this with you and it may be taken harshly but don't, it's an honest view I had to share.

 

Unfortunately, sadly, pitifully, this is true. Sigh....

:bang:

There are exceptions and count yourself lucky, like me, if you train under a teacher who asks you to question everything, even if, especially if, you may not like the answer.

 

Aaah... before people start thinking that all Filipinos martial artists are passively uncritical, maybe it would be good to understand our culture. In the West, directness and frankness are considered good qualities. Traditional Filipino culture puts premium on showing respect to elders, among other things. One may simply tolerate a elder's idiosyncracies and see no need to correct him in public. I tend to be open-minded about other people's views. I can accept certain stories just as Christians can accept the myth of Creation. I myself make up stories to teach, just as the parables were used to teach. Not all my stories are historically accurate or factual, but then I make it clear whenever I am making up a story.

I do draw a line, however, when the master's ethics and behavior become questionable. For example, if I found out an instructor was a sex pervert, I would leave him, regardless if his style is the best or most lethal in the world.

One will always have the free will to select one's teachers. If some people find that a truthful teacher is the exception, my own experience is that many of my instructors were open-minded and welcomed questions rather than promoted blind loyalty.

 

:love:
Red's always got that flair for writing! You said it better Red, Everything I said boils down to this simple point about "questioning"

Traditional Filipino culture puts premium on showing respect to elders, among other things. One may simply tolerate a elder's idiosyncracies and see no need to correct him in public.

But I also know that we as humans though galant as we may try to be, preffer loyal students than those that question everything we do. My take on openmindedness in a positive way is the questioning of things to make sure we are able to use or effectively demonstrate what we are taught (and to beat a dead horse) not question to put them in an awkward position.

I know that these questions have irritated my Manongs for different reasons. Some because they truely have found some connection to the use of Kali instead of the more popular Arnis and Eskrima but can't prove it in terms of what proof means to Historians, others because deep inside I know they probably switched for commercial use of the word but could put them on the spot. But anyway it does not affect any of the fighting techniques . That's it for me, I'm going in circles. funnny on the sex pervert thing!

 

Filipino World-View

Aside from following tradition, another reason why I remain open-minded about how the oldies talk about their art is because there is always something subjective in the Filipino's explanations. Western minds tend to think in rational, scientific and even linear terms. They have a harder time accepting explanations that don't quite fit the bill. For example, one well-known master laughed for several minutes when he heard that a blind princess allegedly taught kali to another master. Another time, though, he related to his students that he had communicated with fairies when he went into a trance. I think these were subjective experiences, real to the persons involved. Many of the old warriors went on a spirit/vision quest. Only they can really know what their experiences were about, and they will have a hard time explaining it to others. I myself have had wierd experiences and if I were to relate it to just anybody, I will get strange looks. I tried telling my wife but she told me the reason I experienced these was because I didn't go to church often enough. Bayani is right, some stories are better told in private.

 

I don't mean questions in that I am doubting the person I am talking to, I mean questioning to ensure that I get something right, not to critisize the individual and his/her abilities, It is easy to stand there and copy movements and accept everything that you are told the first time, but sometimes not knowing the reason behind a certain, strike, move, technique etc can be the difference between getting the technique to work correctly and making a complete hash of it, just standing there twirling like Spaghetti as GM Danny Guba often say's.

Like someone else has said, If I found out the instructor was a pervert, I would leave, if I knew he was having an affair, well, that's none of my business, If he like to drink a little too much, hey who dose'nt and as long as he is there to teach me all the good stuff, then that is all that matters.

Questioning is a good thing, the art of it is asking the right questions at the right time that is the important thing.

If you cant get a technique to work for instance and you cant see you can ever get it to work then more fool you if you stand there and just keep quiet. Asking a simple question like: I can't get this to work and I can't see how I can get it to work, WHAT AM I DOING WRONG. Gets you favourable responces.

Every Filipino Manong that I have had the fortune to train with have always said, ask questions.

If you follow blindly because your to scared to ask, you could well spend the rest of your life doing it all wrong. For instance a common term I have often heard from the JKD/Kali fraternity which always makes me place my head in my hands is: "You can't do it that way, because Dan dose'nt do it like that", Is that respect or is that just blind stupidity?

Best regards

Pat