Are UK Police not allowed to hit a suspect who's assaulting them?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by EdiSco, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    As its a hypothetical scenario, it'll be difficult because there'll be small details to comb through. However, a scenario where its 2 > 1 and youre the 1, you can easily argue "fear for life and safety". It's only an issue when they're both KO'd and you're still doing the donkey kong dance on their heads.
     
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  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Interesting point, joint locks don't break bones (generally) they hyper extend/dislocate them, so whilst popping a joint isn't a good primary aim for SD, it also isn't as bad legally as you may think, (although chokes are legally more dangerous, their also more efficient) rough takedown omto their head/posting arms, are far worse.
     
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  3. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    The other thing to consider that if you do pin someone down you are in a mount position (a generalization I know) and can appear to be the aggressor by bystanders, even if you are the one defending themselves.
     
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  4. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    Could you please give more details for each of these? Thanks.
     
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Definetly, plus if your using any tangled positions, the ability to disinguage is reduced, ideally if you need to pin, knee on belly with a nearside arm giftwrap, or a knee on face/neck is preferable, but you don't always get the choice!
     
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  6. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Distract ..a distraction technique or strike clap ones hands , nerve manipulation
    Disfunction knee strikes to legs , elbows to head , major strikes to put the opponent down
    Disrupt talk your way out of it
    Strike hard, as in dysfunction
    Disengage whenever possible walk or run away
    Create distance...if they are outside striking range they cant hit you ...dont ever go nose to nose

    Hope this helps
     
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  7. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    While we are on the subject of distractions and disruptions here are the 4 D's by Geoff Thompson.

    The Four 'D's by Geoff Thompson

    There are four techniques often used by attackers, especially muggers and rapists, in preparing victims for attack. Although these are nearly always overlooked by self-defence writers, the four 'D's - dialogue, deception, distraction and destruction - are the most important element of self-protection to be aware of.

    DIALOGUE

    Dialogue designed to disarm and distract the targeted victim is the professional attacker's most common priming technique.

    An attacker will approach a potential victim in a non-threatening way and begin a conversation.

    Often, he will ask a question about directions, ask if you have the time, a light, or any spare change.

    His objective is to make you think about his question, so that you do not notice the weapon he is drawing, or his accomplice coming around behind you.

    It only takes a second of distraction for you to get into deep trouble. Understanding this will make you more aware and keep you alert, which is the most important part of target hardening.

    DECEPTION

    An attacker uses deception to make himself appear harmless.

    Dialogue and appearance are the most common methods used to deceive victims, to make them let down their guard. Do not expect dangerous people to stand out in a crowd.

    Attacks may start with politeness, even with an ingratiating approach.

    Deception is the attacker's greatest asset. Every attack I have ever documented that was not a blind-side attack (the ones that happen when you do not use awareness) came through deception, the attacker using this as a window of opportunity.

    DISTRACTION

    Distraction is a part of deception and usually comes through dialogue.

    The attacker may ask his victim a question and then initiate attack while the victim is thinking about the answer. This distraction also switches off any instinctive, spontaneous physical response the victim may have.

    A man with twenty years of physical training in a fighting art can be stripped of his ability by this simple ploy. I have witnessed many trained fighters, who are monsters in the controlled arena get beaten by a guy with only an ounce of their physical ability. How? They were distracted before the attack.

    Rob, a hardened street fighter and nightclub doorman, always told potential opponents that he didn't want to fight before he attacked them. Their first thought when recovering consciousness would be: 'I'm sure he said he didn't want to fight!'

    If the distraction is submissive, 'I don't want any trouble, can we talk about it?' will also take your assailant down from a state of fight or flight to one of low awareness, because your submissiveness tells him that the danger is over and he can relax into self-congratulation.

    Brain engagement via disarming/distracting dialogue, gives the victim a blind second. This is when the assailant strikes. The distraction is also used by the experienced attacker to take down any protective fences that may have been constructed by the victim (the 'fence' is dealt with in detail in a later chapter).

    DESTRUCTION

    This is the final product of expert priming.

    Few people survive the first physical blow and most are out of the game before they even realise that they are in it.

    Even trained martial artists often get suckered by the four 'D's because these do not appear on their training curriculum. They do not understand the enemy they are facing.

    The attacker uses the techniques of deception and distraction to prime a victim that is only trained in 'physical response'.
     
  8. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    The dialogue stuff I always find quite fascinating. Even after having been exposed to some of this and read about on it on here for years, I'm still very aware of all the times someone has asked me for the time and I've instinctively out of politeness looked straight at my phone to answer, not giving any consideration to situational awareness and all that.

    It's quite sobering how non-instinctual this stuff is despite how simple it sounds.
     
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  9. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    And that is what the mugger relies on.

    I've had self defence courses that fail to take off because so many think it's unnecessary.

    Some things are obvious once they've been pointed out to you.
     
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    At the end of the day there is a gap between people that are habituated to violence (either through exposure, up bringing, personal use or familiarity through occupation) and people that aren't.
    On the one hand I can (like you) realise the times I wasn't switched on but also realise that also means I'm not a violent idiot, been brought up by violent idiots or do a job that puts me in contact with violent idiots.
    At my core I'm a polite civilised person and I'd rather be that, and occasionally let my guard down, than someone more than passingly familiar with violence.
     
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  11. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Disliked by some (John Titchen dislikes it) and used by others (Hannibal uses it) there is Cooper's Colour Code.

    Cooper's Colour Code was devised by the late Geoff Cooper, who broke down situational awareness into levels of escalating degrees of preparation.

    The colour code system is a mental process, rather than a physical one.

    upload_2019-6-2_18-56-29.png

    upload_2019-6-2_18-56-42.png

    upload_2019-6-2_18-57-23.png

    I liken this to crossing the road.

    You are in Code Yellow (which is where I spend my time unless at home*).

    You see there are no on-coming cars so cross the road.

    Alternatively you see a car coming a bit quicker than you thought and see the threat has changed. You move instantly into code orange, as there is a specified alert.

    You may need to go red and sprint across the road.

    Get to the other side and return to code yellow.

    You'll all have seen people who block a shopping aisle while having a chat.

    They are in code white and completely oblivious to anyone around them.

    When my kids were younger (I have 4) I used to take mental pictures every few seconds. Scan the area to check they were all in tow.

    Do it again 10 seconds later and mentally compare it to the last picture. Any changes, or any missing kids and the alert level goes from yellow to orange and potentially higher.

    *Some of you may recall an incident many years ago when I was confronted at my door by a guy with a knife.

    I was at home, tired, mentally switched off and in code white.

    Going to code yellow even answering the door would have been preferable.

    It's easy go get caught out as Southpaw mentioned.

    Finally I apologise for the HAVOC logos, but I'm not searching the interwebs for clean images.
     

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  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You can be entirely polite but also increase your situational awareness.

    An easy one is to walk past someone and then turn to talk to them (a little further away than normal conversation range) if they stop you in the street. This way you can quickly do a 360° scan, and if they do mean you any harm you have dictated the position and space, which will already make them think twice if they're looking for easy pickings.

    Being aware of the cues given off by aggressors can be used to your advantage as well. You can put people at ease, even if they have no knowledge of this stuff, by consciously not adopting any unintentionally intimidating body language. Some really friendly and well-meaning people can seem scary to others just by the way they move, speak and take up personal space. So you can use your knowledge to be more polite! :)
     
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  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I make sure I punch everyone who asks me the time just in case.

    I'm joking of course but in this age of smart phones I basically ignore or just say 'no sorry' to anyone who approaches me in the street.
    I don't see why they need to?
    Most people have phones so there's no real reason to ask anyone the time or where somewhere is. I certainly never ask anyone what the time is or where I'm going.
    So I figure anyone approaching me is probably either a beggar/chugger (I already give to the charities I support), trying to sell me something I don't want (I never buy if approached directly), trying to convert me to a religion (happily atheist thanks) or an actual mugger (in which case I'm generally a fast walking target).
     
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    The misanthropic school of self-defence.

    "Ignore everybody" :D
     
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  15. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    It works the other way too. The way we are perceived by others.

    For example yesterday in a shopping centre car park was a woman with both hands full of shopping.

    She has unlocked her car, but couldn't open her door while still holding the bags.

    I offered and opened the door, but was very aware of the words I used, the angle I approached and so on.

    To her I hope it just appeared a friendly gesture, but to me there was so much more going on.
     
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  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    One thing has stayed with me from years ago about demeanour and attitude in public.
    I went to a 'martial arts illustrated' super seminar. An all day affair with Rick young, Neil Adams, Geoff Thompson, Peter consterdine and others. A hundred plus people attending. It was great.
    On the way home we stopped to get petrol and as I walked into the station through automatic doors to pay didn't realise an older guy was coming out. We both pulled up short, did the 'dodge to the same side, dodge back again' dance then both stepped back and said "No after you". In the end the older guy stepped right back into the shop and waved me through.
    This polite, unassuming older guy didn't know me at all but I knew he was Peter Consterdine. Someone renowned for hitting with body numbing power and able to double hip slap me off the planet. Someone that's worked the doors and trained bodyguards.
    But there he was moving out of my way.
    That always struck me as someone epitomising the old adage of 'walk softly but carry a big stick" and that's something I've tried to be like myself (while obviously not carrying a metaphorical stick half as hefty as Peter's).
     
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  17. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Great story Smitty
     
  18. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I'm the same and very guilty of using my phone out in the open. (Having to glance at messages)
    And I work in an area where its moped ridey phoney snatchey*
    What I do tho, is that I walk further away from the road, I dont believe in hiding in a crowd because there's just as good a chance of a snatcher there too. I always hold onto my phone using the Eagle claw technique. (Actually serious).
    And Im always looking forward.

    *and thats why I hate selfie sticks...why openly advertise your potentially stealable item?
     
  19. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Because there are so few Scots here I just slap on my thickest Glaswegian accent and spew out a stream of nonsense. At least once I was pretty certain a guy was going to try to mug me and he just stopped in place, befuddled. Mugger.exe has encountered a Scottish accent and has stopped working.
     
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  20. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    That's the reason you hate them? There's so many other options though
     

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