I think you'll find we have, but you just don't like the answers we are giving. In addition to your list of: All striking methods on the heavy bag and work with focus-mitts. Chin Na with take-downs and throws. Falling, rolling and break-falling. YinYang Symbol Tui Shou. Impact/conditioning work. Fa Jin. Spontaneous Reflex Responses. Wide Angle Peripheral Vision. Partner 'Attack/Defense" training. Vital Point Manipulation - Dian Xue. Other vital training required for a student to be able to apply taiji effectively in a self defence situation is regular contact practice with a resistant opponent. Be this through free sparring, set technique drills, one-sided sparring etc. Unfortunately, if people want to know how to defend themselves from a violent attack, they have to put themselves in a situation that closely resembles a violent attack. This can either involve going to the local pub and telling the biggest bloke there that you bedded his mum, or you can practice with a resisting opponent. I'll say it again; you are making it too complicated.
I'm embarrassed to say that the joke went completely over my head. It shouldn't have, given how many people have asked if they had to lift a hot cauldron during their black sash tests (naturally, I tell tham that doesn't happen until second degree). Incidentally, though I haven't verified the claims, I've heard a number of times that Willem Reeders, who brought our system to the US, was a (the?) technical consultant on the old Kung Fu series, and that Master Po may have been based in part on his uncle. Then again, I wouldn't put it past you to have known that and made the joke for exactly that reason. Oh, I suppose I should apologize to Anthony, since this post isn't about defending one's self with taiji. :topic: I would like to point out that, as much as he's scolded us for getting off the topic of the original post, the original post was not asking whether/how taiji can be used in self defense, as he seems to be claiming, but whether people here have confidence in their ability to use taiji to fight. I don't have an answer to the original post, since while there's a good deal of "taiji-like" stuff in our art, it's not the entirety of what I do, and since I don't know that it has any traceable relation to Chen, I don't know if it's really accurate to call it taiji in the first place. I am confident that I can use what I do to fight and/or defend myself, and that I'd be using some of the principles I've learned in the "taiji-like" aspect of my training.... for whatever that's worth to the real taijiquan practitioners.
Hi Anthony, good question Yes we train for self defence and not for fighting and use the following from your list: All striking methods on the heavy bag and work with focus-mitts. Chin Na with take-downs and throws. (more for how to defend against them) YinYang Symbol Tui Shou. Impact/conditioning work. (use your partner as a heavy bag) Fa Jing training. (lots of) Spontaneous Reflex Responses. Wide Angle Peripheral Vision. Partner 'Attack/Defense" training. Vital Point striking. Push hands sound exactly the same as yours, with mother, father, son and daughter palms. Wudang Hand Weapons (the predessers to push hands) Large San Sou with Fa-jing (no dancing allowed) Small San Sou ( for cutting angles And power used with a stamp Created by the waist) regards
It's a false dichotomy being presented when it comes to training - an all practical and meaningful ways. It may be fully understood that not all scenarios are equal! And suitable adjustments can be made for interested parties.. You only need look the way self defence arts such as Krav Maga are heading. Self defence invariably involves fighting. train it without any fighting and you may as well not bother.. in my opinion leaving out this vital aspect will not prepare you well for the realities of hand to hand combat, however it goes down. As much as i really like and value attack/ defence sparring drills, . Not to be confused for a good simulation of how people combat in the real world. they are great preperation for free fighting(sparring). training certain things in a more isolated setting. Why oh why do you guys cut of you nose to spite your faces? Just grow some and spar already - that's if you actually want to get better at defending yourselves from people who can fight. Walmsley no! But before I go on you would like to know something about my training. The answer is yes, nothing on your list is unfamilier to me despite any labeling preferences. to continue. Both parties attacking and defending simultaniously is the ticket. power, speed are other factors attached to all drills or sparring. Earlier you said the difference where enourmous - between the methods of training self defence vs. fighting. Ok they must be obvious then? So let's hear them please. Other than making scenario based adjustments such as say 2 on 1 or one person beginning the drill/sparring from behind the other (to simulate a surprise attack) etc. The optimal component that simulates real self defence/fighting is both parties attacking and defending at the same time. Anything less is a bizzar and serious underestimation of what one will be up against if attacked by another. All the nuts and bolts of what makes optimal training are the same between so called self defence and combat/fighting (sports) to repeat Old Palden LARP(live action role play) will only be of any use if you practice free combat too. We all face training limitations, some put more in front of them than others i guess. It is not usually the case either that in real life scenarios there are not limitations or rules of engagement to be condidered too.
fighting vs pushing Hi All, I would like to clarify one point I read in this thread. Tai Chi is still taught as a martial art and it includes fighting. In Traditional Yang Tai Chi all martial aspects are covered. It is sad that only about 5% of schools seem to teach tai chi as a martial art. Of those only a small amount are not tainted with interpretation based on other martial arts. In Traditional Yang Tai Chi empty hand free fighting and weapon free fighting are a little advanced. All fighting skills develop out of understanding the body via Forms and alot of PH. Fixed Step PH especially is the foundation of learning to use Taiji for fighting and for practicing free fighting. From fixed step a "new" nervous system develops and the "taiji body" emerges. Several key energies and skills come from fixed step. Moving step gives the opportunity to translate those skills into motion and learn some new ones. Free fighting gradually emerges naturally from moving step PH. Free fighting level attained to in this way will keep the right "taiji feeling". If fighting is done at the beginning levels it wont be taiji. But free fighting is an important part of Taiji. That being said, at all levels fixed step ph is part of every training session because it is core training ( don't mean ABs). Even weapons fighting skill comes from this PH practice. Does anyone else follow this type of regime in their taiji as a martial art? Best to all!
Jalan7, I agree that Traditional Yang (or any "traditional" family style) will teach taijiquan as a martial art. The issue is that these days, 95% of what is passed off as "traditional taijiquan" is actually watered down, barely half of what taijiquan "traditionally" involved.
jalan7, My own school (Traditional Yang directly from Yang Zhen Ji), follows this way of teaching pretty much. It saddens me when I see "Taiji" schools that incorporate other MA's and other MA training methods in their curriculum and try to pass it off as Traditional taijiquan. We also spar and practise multiple partner sparring with Jian. Very best wishes
Having taken a quick look at your 'profile', I see you have considerable experience. A couple of questions, if you don't mind; have you had access to this 'other 95%' and how did the training differ from the '5%' available today? I would also appreciate it if you could explain the term 'traditional' or, if you prefer, 'traditional Taijiquan'? Thanks, and looking forward to your reply. Anthony Walmsley. www.wau.it/haha
I think you have misunderstood me. 95% of what is available today is poor quality taijiquan. That is, taijiquan whose "essence" has been removed or lost. This comes from schools who teach "taijiquan for health", only covering form, basic push hands, and a bit of qigong. Or even from schools who claim to teach taijiquan as a martial art, yet only cover form, some push hands, some qigong and maybe a few co-operative applications. The other 5% that is available today is closer to "traditional" taijiquan, in that it involves gongfu (hard work). These 5%, regardless of their reasons for practicing the art, recognise that it is a martial art, and that any benefits for health or "spirit" come from practicing taijiquan as a martial art. This includes form training (not just going through taijiquan form as some sort of dance, but holding each posture for extended periods of time to develop structural connection, root etc... and making the transitions from the major postures as slow as possible in order to focus on moving from the centre, maintaining full body connection of the 6 outer harmonies, etc), push hands training (included fixed step, freestep, applications from form and more), postural applications of taijiquan form (that is taking postures and transitions from the taijiquan form and exploring various martial applications covering dian xue, qinna & shuai jiao, and testing these applications of postures against varying levels of resistance from different partners/opponents), jin training (exploring the way the 8 core jins of taijiquan can be applied in relation to an opponent), root training (involved uprooting exercises, such as the well known "wall bouncing" exercise, in which one partner uproots the other using different postures from form [ji {press} being a common example] and bounces them into a wall a short distance behind. The person being bounced then has to absorb the impact into the wall through their back.) These are a few of the things that are missing from 95% of taijiquan taught nowadays. Traditional Taijiquan: Taijiquan that is taught/practiced in the traditional manner - ie; as a martial art, not some new age, hippy health dance/meditation.
2 cents Hi Folks, I would define traditional Taiji as that containing the full original content without influence from other martial arts. Of course every school wants to call their line "traditional" but not all are. Traditional Taiji should proceed based on reference to the Taiji Classics. It should include empty hand form, fixed and moving PH, sword, sabre, spear, Qi Gong. Other content covered within this framework would include applications, chin na, takedowns, self-defense (as a result), and free fighting. Additional supplementary exercises including standing meditation may be taught (definately part of Traditional Taiji but kept for indoor students by some Shifus). Influence from other martial arts is very clear when you see what applications a school shows for its postures. Pure Taiji energy is used alot differently than hard styles. Most hard stylists would never guess the applications for Taiji Forms without seeing them demonstrated. If it looks like a karate application it is not Taiji. A teacher should be able to demonstrate Root, and taiji fa jing. If they look exhausted from the effort it is not Taiji. That being said, there are a lot of good hearted people out there propagating Taiji and bettering the lives of those they teach through Taiji for Health. Hopefully they tell their students that they are learning only one aspect of Taiji. Certainly there is more health benefit through practicing the full curriculum. What they are teaching is not necessarily "poor quality", just different. However, I personally don't know how a true understanding of Forms could be learned or passed on without strong PH knowledge. Just my opinion. There are no Taiji police, no governing body. If there were then what would be the standards? It is up to the student to find out for themselves what is correct. If they really love Taiji they will persevere. The scary part is potential injury or poor health from improper practice. It is a very real threat. And there are big organization(s) out there who will award a teaching certificate after one year Tai Chi study and a short course in teaching at a fee. Very dangerous! We should count ourselves lucky! Best
I would define traditional taijiquan as taijiquan that is taught in accordance with the classics, emphasising the 13 postures, and applying itself as a martial art, not a health routine. I think what you are trying to describe is direct lineage transmission. For instance, taijiquan can still be traditional, even if it does not contain a sabre set, or a jian set. Quan, being a shortening of Quanfa, meaning Fist Techniques, implies an empty hand fighting system. Sword, sabre etc. used to be refered to seperately, ie: taiji-jian, taiji-dao. See my comment above regarding sword, sabre etc... All of this should be included by default in form training. I believe I've said this before, but form never used to be practiced as a smooth dance, like it is nowadays. When practicing form, students and teachers alike would hold the major postures for lengths of time (more on this in the section below), and make the transitions very slow as to build their foundation skills. Flowy forms were only used in public demo's, to attract students. Standing Post exercises that are common nowadays never used to be a part of the taijiquan training method. Postures from the form were held in a similar fashion to zhan zhuang, but zhan zhuang itself was not part of taijiquan. Applications are applications. Unfortunately, taijiquan in combat looks nothing like taijiquan form. Fighting is ugly, and taijiquan is included in that uglyness. In a fight, a taijiquan person will look like a person in a fight, that's all. The same as a karate person, or a taekwondo person. What is important is the internal components, root, posture, jin, etc. How these things are expressed will define what applications look like. They may be good hearted, but what they are teaching is not taijiquan. Taijiquan is a martial art. "Back in the day" the school I trained at was made up of 50% people learning for fighting ability, the other 50% were interested in health benefits. We all trained the same way, form, push hands, applications or dian xua, qinna etc. Very hard training. The 50% for health didn't come to class expecting to sit in a circle humming and visualising their energy merging with the cosmos or any of the other rot that gets passed off as taijiquan in modern "health" classes. I have to differ there. If it is not practiced as a martial art, then it is a poor quality shadow of true taijiquan, regardless of how pretty their forms are.
There are benefits to be gained from practicing tai chi without martial emphasis that cannot be gained from a brisk walk with a dog. As a bonus, the practice of tai chi doesn't entail picking up poop. Rather it entails broad spectrum increases in strength, balance, flexibility, circulation of blood, lymph and cerebrospinal fluid, all without the pounding or jerking of most other exercise systems. This makes tai chi one of the things it is: A perfect wellness/exercise system for aging humans, practiced by millions of people worldwide as just that. Look, I know that tai chi chuan is an effective martial art, and in my opinion it's a superior system; powerful, subtle and refined. That said, I think it arrogant and slightly fascist to demean those who practice tai chi (absent chuan) for its health and/or meditation benefits. While there are a fair share of flaky, misguided new-age poseurs out there, there are sincere and worthy tai chi teachers and practitioners with little or no interest in the martial facet of their pursuit. Many acupuncturists consider their practice of tai chi/chi chung to be one of the pillars of their healing practice, and their view has spread to other therapeutic disciplines--massage, chiropractic, and even some Western Medical Professionals. For meditators, tai chi's centering and calming effects on the mind are good adjuncts to any sitting (or standing) practice I've ever heard of or done. While I have both fascination and aspiration with chuan, I will defend rather than demean those who love the art I love, even though they love for different reasons.
I'm not saying it's wrong to practice taijiquan for reasons other than martial. Simply that practicing it with out martial context is not taijiquan, but something else - something lesser.
There are obviously some differences between practising for self defence and practising for competition. Two different, inter-related fields. One of the big problems with self defence is that in self defence training people are 'groomed' to think that it will work. For many people, it doesn't- and the fact that they've been groomed to expect that it will only makes the situation even worse, as they collapse in an 'oh my God it's all failed I'm going to die now' mind-set. There is almost no consideration of what I call 'second chance self defence' - that is, where your self defence failed, or you were too scared to use it, or it worked, but they got out of it and came back at you. A large aspect of that is the psychological freezing - and that is actually made worse by the fact that the self defence course you went on taught you to expect attack/response/escape, over and over. The great benefit of sparring is that it teaches you attack/fail/attack again. Or attack/partly suceed/attack again/defend/attack... Sparring helps train people to be in a longer, continuous fight. I don't care what anyone says, people feel a lot of fear in sparring and competion fighting; and it's the psychology that is one of the most critical aspects of self defence faliure. Sparring/fighting teaches people to expect some faliure; teaches people the skills necessary for recovering from faliure, etc. It never fails to amaze me how few self defence teachers teach people how to lose as safely as possible - the one thing you're most likely to need, and should know before anything else - how to take a beating, what to do, how to cover up, what it feels like, what to do on the floor when you're getting a kicking. Mostly,I think, because they've never been there themselves, so they don't know. Sparring is massively useful for that - and even for age groups that can't do sparring, they can do some pressure training to simulate getting a beating. Half of the faliure of martial artists in sparring and self defence is fear of getting hit - which is one of the easiest things to train people out of, if only people did it the right way. And again - second chance self defence - don't train people to think that it will all work first time - train them what to do when they've just been nutted, and the blood and snot is choking them.
