I can't argue with any of that. The terms are certainly open to interpretation, and when presented by Taiji instructors, it is indeed rarely presented as a means to becoming a competent fighter. I think that claim is a little misleading, though, since as we all know, the majority of taiji instructors aren't teaching a martial art, and the "real deal" can be awfully difficult to find, so pretty much anything that is commonly presented in the TC world is not to further one's destructive abilities. A teacher I know (not mine) coined a distinction between the terms "taiji" and "taijiquan," such that when he said "taiji," it was pejorative, not simply shorthand. I always thought that was apt, saying that the majority of taiji out there is lacking the quan. You can trust me or not, that's no big deal to me. This system is far from "pure" anything, and has rather broad influences, including some northern Chinese influence, though it's certainly not predominant. However, the tiger and dragon are not by any means limited to Northern Shaolin. I haven't seen similar logos used much by Northern Shaolin schools, and aside from the T-shirts I and my associates have worn for the last few decades, the schools I've most often seen use logos somewhat similar are those teaching American Kenpo Karate, which has its roots in Southern gungfu Cantonese, if I understand correctly). I've also seen a website of a gungfu school in Fujian using a somewhat similar logo, though I know nothing about them. However, if you do see someone representing this particular logo as a "symbol of N. Shaolin logo," please do let me know, as I'd want to know who stole my logo, or my teacher's logo that it's based on. Happy New Year to you too, Doc! I'd almost forgotten why I stopped using MAP for awhile. Waiting ~60 seconds for each thread or reply window to finish loading is painful... I hoped that after six months or so, they'd have resolved their server issues.
The original question on this thread opened the possibility of discussing a particular field of research, i.e., how is the art of Taijiquan used in a Self Defense context. As all practitioners of this particular art are aware - or should be aware - it was invented as a Martial system and used as such for Self Defense. Stories and anecdotes of, for example, Yang Lu Chan's ability abound and his sons were well recognised as very capable in this context. Why, then, is it proving so difficult to continue this discussion? Perhaps an explicit statement is in order: "I am interested in information from with any readers of this thread who have been trained, or are training in, Taijiquan as a system of Self Defense and would welcome an exchange of experiences regarding the methods and exercises they have found useful." Anthony Walmsley. www.wau.it/haha
Why is everyone making this so complicated? If you wish to apply taijiquan in a fight, then you have to train to do so. That means, practicing fighting techniques, against people who are not "letting" you win. IE - resisting opponents. It's not a new term that has been coined by the MMA crowd. If you want to learn to use taijiquan to fight, then you have to train it within the context of fighting.
As mentioned in my other messages, I distinguish between 'fighting' and Self Defense. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in 'fighting' another person; I am interested - see my earlier posts - on setting up an exchange of information on 'training methods' that readers have found useful in their research of Taijiquan as a Self Defense art. For example, apart from 'form, Qigong and a little Push Hands, what are the methods one would use within a Taijiquan programme to train a slightly built middle aged man or woman to at least attempt to defend themselves in the event of physical aggression? I have already placed a partial list of methods for training this capacity that I have found to be a good investment; if other readers have further contributions I would be more that pleased to receive their feedback. Anthony Walmsley. www.wau.it/haha
A fight is two or more people, hitting (or trying to hit) each other, for whatever reason. Self defence (once it reaches the stage of physical violence) is a fight in which one side of the fight is unwillingly involved, but is forced to act to prevent harm coming to himself. An instance where both parties of the fight WANT to be involved, this is a rutting contest, aimed at settling some sort of dispute. Again, why are you making this so complicated by drawing up unnecessary catagories? And as for "apart from 'form, Qigong and a little Push Hands, what are the methods one would use within a Taijiquan programme to train a slightly built middle aged man or woman to at least attempt to defend themselves in the event of physical aggression?" the answer is again simple! Practice fighting techniques! Train in opening an opponent's doors and windows, investigate different ways of applying the Eight Techniques, practice Chin Na applications, and most of all TEST IT AGAINST SOMEONE WHO IS TRYING TO HIT YOU!!!
This sounds all very well and good, and young, macho men are generally more than will to indulge in the approach you suggest, however, I must insist - what are the methods you propose to train a middle aged, slightly built, timid man or woman? I am not trying to irritate anybody in asking these questions; I, as an instructor have had to take a concrete look at this problem, hence my request for feedback and contributions on 'realistic' methodology. Anthony Walmsley. www.wau.it/haha
The reason there is general confusion, is because people seem determined to draw distinctions where they ought not be :hat: Unfortunately, the answer remains the same. Resistant practice is REQUIRED! There is no way to prepare for the chaotic, aggressive nature of a fight, other than to fight. I'm not saying that we must "spar" at hard contact levels at all times. What I'm saying is that when practicing fighting techniques, they must be practiced with a partner who is not allowing you to suceed your technique. Training partners should use realistic, varying attacks, and varying levels of speed and intensity (low at first, building up as you gain proficiency), and not leave their punches hanging in the air for the practition to debate over. I've taken a look at your website that you mention under your name, and from the looks of it, your school focuses on the health benefits of taijiquan, which is fine. However, I've observed that within schools that focus on this aspect of the art, there is a real reluctance to accept that learning to fight involves practicing fighting.
Again, we are at an impasse - I do not teach nor am I interested in, 'fighting' - I am interested in methods that train Self Defense. Anthony Walmsley. www.wau.it/haha
The physical side of self defence is fighting. If someone is trying to hit you, and you are trying to stop them hitting you, you are in a fight. You do not want to be involved, but you are being forced to fight. Until you can accept this, no answer will suit you, because it will not fit in with your mishappened view of fighting/self defence. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, a lock is a lock, and a throw is a throw. The only difference is the context in which they are applied. How they are applied stays the same.
This is true, however, the training methods that differenciate 'Fighting' from Self Defense methodology are enormous. Anthony Walmsley. www.wau.it/haha
They're not really that different. You learn to absorb incoming attacks, and redirect the energy back to the opponent. You apply the Eight Techniques and utilise the Five Steps. As I said, until you drop your preconceived idea that punching someone in self defence is physically different to punching someone in a rutting contest, you will not be able to accept the truth. If you want to know how to deal with an aggressive attack, then you need to train with an unresisting opponent who is trying to knock your block off. Simple as.
I'd think the best way to teach a "timid middle aged woman self defence" is through a gentle introduction to 'fighting' building it up. Im with Zhang here, its all the same, if you end up attacked you need to know how to evade,absorb, and counter attack, just the same as in what you call "fighting". Back to the timid middle aged woman thing, there all nutters deep down, you just need to bring it out of them! You say fighting and self defence are different. I know you are getting at "competition fighting is not like fighting on the street". Sure its not, competitors act more predicably and follow a rule set. BUT it is the closest approximation you can get to a real fight without making it do more harm then good. Sure, the practitioner needs to remember its different and programme this into their mind and body. But it's as real as its going to get.
What are you teaching? More importantly, who are you teaching and why do you think your qualified to teach? You clearly don't have a clue and from your web site you just look like a dreamer!
Returning to one of my earlier posts: I would be interested to hear those of you who have been, or are being trained in the following material (aside from 'form', Qigong and 'Tui Shou'): All striking methods on the heavy bag and work with focus-mitts. Chin Na with take-downs and throws. Falling, rolling and break-falling. YinYang Symbol Tui Shou. Impact/conditioning work. Fa Jin. Spontaneous Reflex Responses. Wide Angle Peripheral Vision. Partner 'Attack/Defense" training. Vital Point Manipulation - Dian Xue. The list is by no means exhaustive. Anthony Walmsley. www.wau.it/haha
All of these things are important, but without some form of resistant training with a partner, they are wasted.
Having looked at you website...do you inform your students that they are being taught what amounts to cherrypicked techniques from various MA, as opposed to a single MA?? Imo/e, cross training is too be encouraged only once a student is well versed in their chosen and well practiced MA.
Few of the replies posted here to date have contributed in a constructive manner to my requests for 'information', therefore I will once again repeat: I would be interested to hear those of you who have been, or are being trained in the following material (aside from 'form', Qigong and 'Tui Shou'): All striking methods on the heavy bag and work with focus-mitts. Chin Na with take-downs and throws. Falling, rolling and break-falling. YinYang Symbol Tui Shou. Impact/conditioning work. Fa Jin. Spontaneous Reflex Responses. Wide Angle Peripheral Vision. Partner 'Attack/Defense" training. Vital Point Manipulation - Dian Xue. The list is by no means exhaustive. I should perhaps assure all readers, that the training methods listed above are ALL to be found in the Martial Art of Taijiquan. Anthony Walmsley. www.wau.it/haha
I will take that to be a no then? It is worth considering that NO thread stays true to the initial post. It is a DISCUSSION forum...therefore it will both meander and raise other linked themes.
You will discover that it is not rare all over the various forums on MAP to have topic drift.Sometimes it keeps a thread alive and will come back to original topic,then drift,return,etc.I understand this may be frustrating to you.You'll have to bear with it if you stick around MAP. The original question by Genkuro used the term "real fight".Which covers everything from the idiot who is picking a fight with one,to what seems to be your concern,unexpected sudden attack,such as a coming from a mugger out of the alley. I think it's fairly well understood these days that undertaking a study of most "fighting systems" is not a quick route to basic self defense skills.Which is why some instructors of various systems often teach basic anti-rape and self defenses courses for those who wish to learn and practice such skills,but have neither time and/or inclination to pursue the study and practice of a "fighting system". An individual immersed in a legitimate "fighting system",properly taught and practiced will develop skills which can be utilized in such scenarios as the mugging example above.The extent of this is of course dependent on how much they train for different scenarios,environments,etc. The majority of instructors of various fighting systems are teaching their systems.Whatever items in their systems you may deem useful for your definition of self defense are generally taught as part of the whole.Not as separate stand alone entities. While I doubt I'm the only person here who has known of less than large and youthful people who have defended themselves in very serious situations due to their training in a system,the best way to train for immediate sd is to partake-(and continue practice of the material)- of courses/seminars which deal strictly with that.This would be true regardless of age and size. You say you're not interested in "fighting",but in self defense.You then reference the Yangs,who made their reps in challenge matches.Not self defense by your criterion.And an entire family which taught a "fighting system". Your explicit statement above seems loaded as regards the wording "been trained, or are training in,Taijiquan as a system of Self Defense". As your definition of sd does not seem to include "fighting",it would appear the opinions/methods of anyone with any knowledge not teaching from a strictly anti mugging etc. perspective are automatically disqualified.As would be many Karate instructors I know if you had asked the same on their forum,including those who do teach straight sd courses-which are not "Karate" per say. As you have already stated in post #25 on this thread- "It would appear that the original question - quoted above[meaning Genkuro's-E.M.] - has not been addressed. Indeed, a number of replies, from "kingoftheforest" would appear to indicate that 'real' experience is questionable."- one has to wonder why you are even asking about training methodologies for sd purposes,as you doubt any of us have any real life experience. ----------------- Note to our regulars-Erik/gungfujoe is an acquaintance from when our clubs trained in the same gym during his university days.I was kidding with him about not trusting his utterances.Guess he missed the meaning in dragon/tiger N.Shaolin joke-Kwai Chang Caine's arm branding!
