You mean how a group of blind men went to see an elephant, one judo-threw the beast and said "elephant is heavy". One punched the elephant and said "elephant is hard and tough". One joint-locked the elephants leg and said "elephant is thick". Then they all started arguing about whether the elephant was heavy, tough or thick. I think that's the gist of the story, but for some reason that doesn't sound quite like the originial...
Mate, you were booked on the Titanic and only turned up at the dock yesterday I think what you are meaning is: And even that is baloney. A majority of teachers (especially in the west) only teach the health benefits of taiji, either because that can be more profitable, or because they are/were too lazy to put in the "kungfu" necesarry to gain the martial skill. And then some of these people pass on their own nonsense in regards to combat skill in taiji. I've heard some people say that by practicing form and qigong, when you're faced with an opponent, you body will respond "in the moment". It is people like these who will be unprepared for the violence and unpredictability of fighting. I know of others who have been "taught" this way, then - considering themselves to be armed with some kind of skill - have gone and taught "taiji for self defence" to friends and family. Again, it's these intellectually & physically lazy people who are contributing to the degradation of taijiquan. Fortunately, there are people out there who possess the ability to apply taiji "in action".
I don't go to a lesson without the teacher suggesting something in his quirky manner of "And from hear i can rip the nutsack.....headbut.....ear rip......tittietwist (well, you know the skin/muscle grab thing)..... oooh and hear is a nice pressure point *victim squeals*" I never belived it was going to turn out be the dirtyest fighting style id ever been taught! I suppose im lucky that Ive got a teacher who cares about the martial side. I get the micky taken sometimes about doing TCC though. "Bla bla bla Mauy Thai last night was brutal" "What style do you do?" "Doing tai chi at the minute" "Pha that never would work" "Yes it would" "Show me!" "Ughh ive not been doing it long enough..."
Splendid post! And here we come to the crux of the matter. The general concensus both here and on other forums, is that Taijiquan training mainly consists of a 'form', Qigong and perhaps a little Tui Shou. A large percentage of those teaching this material maintain that they are, indeed, preparing students to affront a 'real' situation; the students, in turn, honestly believe this to be true. I speak from experience here as my first three years or so in Taijiquan conformed to this scenario. I was one of only a handful who questioned the validity of this approach. Reading between the lines of the introduction to virtually any and all books on the art, there can be no doubt whatsoever that Taijiquan was effective in Self Defense. However, 'disturbing', or, as "kingoftheforest" puts it, "creepy" anecdotes and stories of Taijiquan 'in action', are quickly swept under the carpet and we are left with ..... 'form', Qigong and Tui Shou, thus leaving the researcher perplexed, to say the least. Until relatively recently, there was little possibility of resolving this situation; this is no longer true. For example, Douglas Wile's exemplary publications on Taijiquan, have 'progressed' - if that's the right term - from "Tai Chi Touchstones" in which information on the 'martial' aspects is only dealt with in passing, to his more recent books in which we have explicit references to 'Dian Xue' et al. It is also to be noted, that in non of these writings is any kind of 'sports' training mentioned. The question, then, is not whether this training exists or not but where is it to be found and how does it differ from programmes taught in the majority of schools available to the general public? I would be interested to hear those of you who have been, or are being trained in the following material (aside from 'form', Qigong and 'Tui Shou'): All striking methods on the heavy bag and work with focus-mitts. Chin Na with take-downs and throws. Falling, rolling and break-falling. YinYang Symbol Tui Shou. Impact/conditioning work. Fa Jin. Spontaneous Reflex Responses. Wide Angle Peripheral Vision. Partner 'Attack/Defense" training. Vital Point Manipulation - Dian Xue. The list is by no means exhaustive. Anthony Walmsley. www.wau.it/haha
I do some of that stuff, and some of the other stuff I've never heard of My partner work tends to focus on: Jin expression - exploring different ways of expressing Peng, Lu, Jie, Ahn, Cai, Liat, Kao & Zhou Form applications - involving dian xue, chin na and shuio jiao (sp?) Push hands - fixed and freestep Free response - reacting naturally to an unspecified attack from a training partner, to see "what works". Taiji Sparring - Sparring (but with taiji!) And some various other bits and pieces, including some baguazhang stuff I've been given.
Interesting list. The 'Push Hands' I use is very different to that seen in the majority of schools. It is practiced at very close range - car steering wheel distance. The feet are parallel, one hand is placed on your partner's elbow area while the other is in wrist contact. All movement must come from the waist, maintaining the structure covering the centre line. There is no 'pushing or pulling' generally associated with this exercise and no attempts are made to shove your partner across the room. With the feet parallel, it takes very little to find your partner's centre and if he or she doesn't use movements generated from the waist, then losing balance is inevitable. Nor do I advocate 'sparring'. Of course, it remains to be seen exactly how you perform this. Instead, I prefer "Attack - Defense" training. "Free response" work is practiced in tandem with 'Wide Angle Peripheral Vision". This in turn leads to "Spontaneous Reflex Action Response" to any movement your partner may initiate. Anthony Walmsley. www.wau.it/haha
Tai Chi In A Real Fight I was attacked by 3 lads while crossing a sports field late at night and it was difficult to see where the next attack was coming from. Tai Chi proved very useful, sticking to an aggressor prevents him from initiating any surprise attacks in the dark. Also useful for lining him up with the sound of his mate and faking a lu and turning it into a gi so that they collided leaving me with the other guy to deal with. Anyway that sort of routed them and they must of thought bugger that. I'm not sure if it had continued I would have relied purely on tai chi but it certainly is useful for creating an advantageous situation. I managed to use it okay and I've only been studying for 6 years and this happened over a year ago. I don't know how well I would do now but learning the fighting form has boosted my confidence in it. Heres a look at the fighting form that I learned, it still needs some practice and then we need to put some Jin into it and it should be just fine. [ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5z9xN11m0qc"]YouTube - The Tai Chi Fighting Form[/ame] Stephen Brown
Yin Yang Sticking Hands Yin Yang sticking hands training involves sticking and coiling training with the hands wrist and arms. You start with a solo exercise, move to a partner exercise, learn how to advance and retreat, learn how to do vertical and horizontal coiling and then coiling to the side as well as circular walking while coiling. Then it moves into diagonal flying and brush sparrow tail attacks and defences as well as arm traps and breaks followed by foot sweeps and arm trapping. I learned it last year very practical. Oh then you learn it all again coiling the other way for the yin side. There are shuttle differences when your attacked with a yang coiling attack you allow the other person to stay in control of the sequence, but with a yin attack you have to be quick to take their attack away. Bet thats got you intrigued? Check out Yang Jwing Ming's videos, he does a good one on it.
Some how my message got onto this thread by mistake !!! Regarding Fighting. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10582301&posted=1#post10582301
Thanks for that, most of us here practice such things. Err...no. But I am going to go and look for some eggs. What...again? :bang:
In a word "Yes", however, so that all concerned can become comfortable with this, it's practiced at the beginning in a very controlled manner. Basically, 'A' stands in a 'position' from the form and 'B' uses pre-determined strikes that connect with 'A's forearms. The strikes are initially delivered with little physical power. The Objective for 'A' is to experiment with the various angles of the body - wrists, elbows, knees, ankles etc., until he/she can get into a 'structure' which feels for 'B' like hitting an elastic wall. 'B' aims at slowly increasing his/her resistance to striking this 'wall'. As both progress, the power of the strikes is slowly increased until they are delivered with as much power as possible. There are variations on this theme but that's the general idea. Anthony Walmsley. www.wau.it/haha
Steven, It's good to see that you practice this partner form, very few practitioners even know it exists! However, the manner in which it's being demonstrated lacks 'power' in the attacks and responses; do you take this further to a stage where the strikes and counters are 'real'? Anthony Walmsley. www.wau.it/haha
That looks a lot like one of the forms we are taught as well. We also "spar" in a manner where striking power is built up slowly. The more senior students do what we call "playing" where we attack and defend whatever is thrown at us. It's like a free flow exercise where you aren't trying to hurt the other person but you do let them know you hit them. As long as we use and stay within the principles of TC anything goes.
I don't think it's quite that simple. There's certainly the propaganda aspect to it, especially with respect to the PRC-gov't promoted Taiji practice (where those promoting it had a vested interest in taking the "martial" out of "martial arts"). And there's certainly the "new age health" propaganda aspect to it, which has a lot of marketing value among certain demographics. However, I think there are also practical martial reasons for dedicating a lot of training "inner peace, focus, harmony and perception or derivatives of." First and foremost, it teaches one to move in a relaxed manner. Simply relaxing is nowhere near as easy as most people (who haven't trained in methods that require them to actually do it) think it is, and the more pressure we're under, the harder it is to relax. On the flip side, the more relaxed we are, the more effectively we can use our art. We're faster, more perceptive, can react better, and are stronger (because general tension is applied to the muscles that oppose our application, not just to those that aid it). In that sense, the "new age health" benefits of martial arts practice is an important part of "dismantling another human being" in "the most efficient way possible," as you said. Another aspect is the balance itself. Throughout history, nearly all martial traditions are coupled with counter-balancing training. Some have argued that this is trend has happened because it's necessary to keep a warrior mentally stable, to keep the "power" of his training in check, instead of having someone whose ability to fight goes to his head, causing him to run amok, cause trouble, and maybe get himself killed prematurely (the "with great power comes great responsibility" theory of the venerable Uncle Ben... Parker, not the rice magnate). There are certainly excellent fighters who have note incorporated any of this into their training, so I'm certainly not arguing that this is a necessary aspect of learning to effectively fight, but perhaps they're less efficient fighters than they would be if they did.
Inner peace and harmony are both terms which can be interpreted in a number of ways. But both in many peoples views and perceptions,and in the way such things are presented,in the TC world it's not generally presented as an avenue to further ones destructive abilities. Anyway,I'm not sure if I trust the utterances of a silat and southern CMA practitioner who uses the Tiger/Dragon symbol of N.Shaolin for his avatar. Happy New Year,Erik!:hat:
Just for the record, I trust everybody, and I definitely link the practice of tai chi chuan to inner peace . The inner peace that comes from being able to whoop somebody's ass.
