Apologies

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by jclevien, Apr 25, 2016.

  1. jclevien

    jclevien Valued Member

    Hello,

    I would like to ask for apologies, if someone felt uncomfortable with some of my posts, they always went with sincerity and good intentions, for the sake of contributing in some way.

    I realized that my voice is not necessary, so I decided to stop posting, and copy some words from a great human being.

    Thank you all.


     
  2. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    You've met Takamatsu Sensei?

    If not, how can you know if he was a great human being?
     
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Assuming jclevien was being sincere in his apology, why ask how he could know if Takamatsu was a great human being? He obviously was great, as a martial artist at least. How do we know? Because he passed down these martial arts to the next generation. That was a great act, so he could be considered great. I know I consider him so and have never met him. Those who did said he was so but that is hearsay(I don't doubt the sincerity of their opinion though). Anyway, I know it's not always human nature to cut people some slack but every now and then it doesn't hurt, even for a blue meanie.
     
  4. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    don't think i'm picking on ninjutsu here.

    when i read the posted words attributed to takamatsu, i immediately become reminded of why i hate martial arts so much. if i met him i would congratulate him on talking a lot but being essentially meaningless at the same time.
     
  5. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Actually, I doubt you'd do such thing.
     
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I agree. I doubt Giovanni's Japanese language skills too.
     
  7. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i mean come on. did you read that? i realize there's a marketing aspect to this too. but protecting the "spirit"?

     
  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Thing is you have to look at when he said it and who is translating, that's before you look at his background and the whole lot of cultural baggage that's bundled in there.
     
  9. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    That's not my point. Common sense and self preservation side on my contention. I wouldn't walk up to Gene LaBell and make fun of his gi nor would I have gone up to Helio Gracie and called his sons pajama wearing pansies either. Besides being rude, it wouldn't be intelligent.
     
  10. MaxSmith

    MaxSmith Valued Member

    Outside of common sense there's also basic human decency. I think it's pretty clear from my posts I'm not the biggest fan of what Hatsumi teaches, and don't believe it to be effective. That being said I do believe he is sincere in the desire to pass on knowledge. I'd probably go out of my way to be respectful to him if we ever met, just based on his age and sincerity.
     
  11. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    I asked him how he knew takamatsu was a great human being because he wrote Takamatsu was a great human being. You can be a great martial artist and still be a douche. my point is a valid one.
     
  12. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    This looks a bit like threadcrapping, quite honestly. The quoted text isn't about this Takamatsu being a great person. It's simply a casual descriptor by an admirer of his writing. Is there really a point to be made here?
     
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i'm not sure how it's decent to let someone use a bully pulpit to spout nonsense. it's precisely the fact that people do not speak up, that cats like this guy--and there are plenty of others in this industry--can continue charging, and have charged people, people exorbitant fees for years and years.
     
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Takamatsu was a shocking racist IIR, but as he was a product of his culture at that time that can be understood if not actually mitigated.
     
  15. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Actually I think there is.

    Not to take away from the OP's apology but his view of Takamatsu Sensei is a good indicator of his overall attitude towards the art. It is this attitude that has caused friction on the forum.

    He has an overly romantiscised view of the art and training, mainly due to him having done very little. He is tied up and attached to this view which gets in the way of him actually developing real knowledge.

    benkyoka was simply illustrating, imo, that the OP again is getting tangled up in what is possibly a misguided view of the art and those associated with it. It's challenging the assumptions held by Jclevien and hopefully making him realise that he has a long way to go and that he needs to seek real instruction.

    Now whether highlighting that in a thread of this type is appropriate is of course a different question.
     
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Do you know his background and why he might have thought these things?
     
  17. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    So here's my thoughts: I'm not a ninjutsu guy. So when I come in here, I'm starting off with a frame of reference similar to that of any of the newbies who much come in here. And I imagine that a lot of newbies come to this forum specifically because "ninja" is a hell of a lot sexier than "eskrimador" (for example). Now, I know enough to know that's an overly romantic view. But it gets people through the door, overly romantic or no.

    Now, I get that ninjutsu has some historical components to it, and that some of these discussions have been ongoing. But I'd love to see posts that offer someone just arriving some insight into what's behind these exchanges. I know that this is shorthand, based on prior experience with one another. But it's also something of a billboard for MAP.

    Does that make sense?
     
  18. MaxSmith

    MaxSmith Valued Member

    I know what you're saying and I don't entirely disagree, but I think there are a few distinctions.

    For one, I'm not sure I'd classify him as having a bully pulpit. The people he teaches actively seek him out and pay to be taught. Do I personally think they are making a bad decision? Yes. But it is their decision to make.

    Second, the truth is out there. And I mean that in the larger sense of there is plenty of evidence, video and otherwise, of what real people fighting looks like, both amateur and professional. None of it remotely resembles ninjutsu. And this is true of plenty of traditional martial arts, not just the one we are discussing.

    I think people are drawn to martial arts for a lot of reasons, and although it seems counter intuitive, learning how to fight isn't always the main one.

    Also, a lot of older TMA teachers came of age in a time where there wasn't a lot of cross training or mma style events to test the effectiveness of one's training style. I mean, yes they did exist, the history of both judo and BJJ is predicated on them, but you couldn't just turn on a tv and see what happened weekend after weekend. So some traditions evolved that lack effective checks and balances.

    Some of this, ultimately falls on the shoulders of the students as well. If people are constantly throwing themselves down at every half thrown tap, it creates this feedback loop where people on both sides lose their sense of reality. Case in point was that older no touch knock out teacher that out up $5k to fight an mma guy. I'm sure you've seen the video. The old 'master' was genuinely shocked when he got punched in the face, and completely overwhelmed by actual contact. It's clear he wasn't just selling a bill of goods, he'd bought into it too. By the end of the video you can't help but feel kind of sorry for him.

    And lastly, look I'm not religious either, but if a well meaning priest is trying to help people in his community, I'm going to treat th guy with respect, even though I completely disagree with his world view.
     
  19. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I've never heard anything about Takamatsu sensei fleecing anyone, and he was known from childhood as being a fighter, including beating adults. He spent time in China/Mongolia(where he taught), accepting challenge matches and was able to speak other languages. Now yes this is all anecdotal, but I doubt many who would have challenged him even in old age.

    He was a product of his times however, as were many people whom most people would consider great(George Washington who was a slave owner and Thomas Jefferson-who fathered a child by his slave come to mind). Besides being rude to talk smack to your elders, it isn't smart to challenge old guys just because they are old. A lot of them have tricks up their sleeves.

    Takamatsu sensei inherited a lot of traditional fighting systems and experienced lots of real fights(if you believe the stories), he helped one family reclaim some of the scrolls they lost and passed down these arts to those who frequent this board(and the tens of thousands who don't). You don't have to like his words or traditions, but you shouldn't make assumptions about either based on a lack of familiarity and knowledge about them.
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The footage I have seen of Takamatsu makes me believe he knew his poop
     

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