The point is the same then is it not, only approached from various angles. In your example if you do the second you accomplish the first. If you simply 'do your best' then both are accomplished effortlessly. Trying, competition, win, lose, draw just becomes unecessary language which may or may not be distracting. If it serves you well, fine. If another understanding of language also serves the purpose well then that is fine too. I don't think purposes here are that different. What do you think? and yes Cullion, some of us have already sussed that liokault is versed in tao. He is quite tight lipped about it though.. an admirable trait. As is his lack of indulgence. Having said that, we all have our crosses to bear. I respect his views on tcc and martial art practice and the other stuff. The points I differ I have said . I banter with my friends too, I also respect them. Respect is a two way street though. So I can also have some respect either way whilst having no friends and disagreeing - there is nothing that cannot be reconciled. And that ain't no crock.. believe me. ha, ha excuse me I am finding the irony of all this highly amusing.