In other words if its not in the Sun (tm) it cant be true now can it... Just cos it werent written me ol' china dont mean it werent done now innit... PS I too admit to the "being a bit porky" sub plot here... darn christmas...
Never said I was 'old school' that's a Dan Docherty/Erle Montaigue/Richard Dunn(!!!) aspiration - not mine. I'm all for safe training and gloves have their place in your school. (I occasionally train with gloves btw) I was just responding to the post by El Medico on the same wavelength as it was put forward - I probably went over the top slightly as I tend to get the 'red mist' whenever I talk to Liokault - my fault - however, the old way was to avoid full-on sparring etc train jin through push hands, da lu etc etc and only use minimal force if absolutely necessary. There are many stories of the old guys finding ways out of 'fighting' and yet still winning a challenge... Part of Taiji's claim to BE Taijiquan (the supreme ultimate boxing) is based on the fact it does not use crude methods, it takes a more difficult route. From a Taoist pov (and tjq is taoist thru and thru sorry) your yi is affected by your emotions and desires and hence your qi and ultimately your li. Competitions, tournaments, divisions etc are all the antithesis of good tjq - they affect your development negatively. Look at the all anger and arguing in here if you want evidence of that. They are all manifestations of ego. To accept that as 'normal' is to finish your tjq path before you've even started. That's why I say 'waijia'! Absolute rubbish m8 - martial art encompasses both the neijia and waijia in one continuum as two extremes or poles. Hard contact (on both sides) is waijia (EMA). One player adopting hard contact so the other can neutralise, divert, envelop etc etc as a training method can be seen as a neijia training method imo. You guys need to do some classics research and stop just listening to your head of school's personal version of reality imo (I don't mean that insultingly btw, I just think it would make you more rounded in your view of tjq) :Angel:
So if Taijiquan practitioners aren't supposed to practice Waijia, how do you ever get to practice defending yourself against it ? Surely people who don't actually develop 'waijia' or fighting ability are going to be pretty weak practice partners to develop defence against 'waijia' ? That's like a martial art which claims to teach a really good (albeit hard and lengthy to develop) defence against 'thuggish kickboxing', but never actually sparring with kickboxers or training in kickboxing-like methods themselves. They would have a distorted impression of what 'waijia' or 'kickboxing' actually was, and their training would leave them deluded as to what they were capable of. How do you solve this problem of not becoming what you call 'waijia' whilst still teaching an effective martial art ?
He does it like this. One guy says "I am strong, I will push you very hard, but in a pre arranged and easily controlled manner." While Butterfly says "Ha! See how easy it is to simply side step away from a very hard push". Now we are ready for the Str33t.
That is just your perception coming from your ego and proves my point better than I could ever put it myself! I could not care less about what you do to be honest m8. I am confident in my tjq and am not intimidated by your waijia posturing in the slightest. Intelligent points, well put, I will have to answer them tomorrow: Stupid points childishly put, I will treat you with contempt, but answer straight off: I don't train like that at all - again your perception expressed by your ego. I pre-arrange nothing. What is the point? Who would I be trying to kid? We either specify the type of attack we're working with, freestyle spar, push hands with a variety of routines or just play and see where it goes. e.g. today we did fixed foot uprooting push hands, formal circular push hands, freestyle partner work, two on one and one on one half-speed evasion and sparring practice, energy work in push hands and some other stuff. Another week we might work with sparring, bags, disarms, kicking etc we do all sorts but because you are up your own a*se all you can see is sh*t - the problem is your pov - not my tjq! :bang: Neither do I compete - I LEARN. I invest in loss. If a training partner gets the better of me - good for them. Because I'm not competing I can learn when I 'win' or when I 'lose', I have no image to protect, defend or live up to. In the waijia world you live in, you always have to 'prove' how good you are because you are full of fear and anger - both expressions of a ruling ego. If you enjoy that, good - I don't. The reason you are arguing is because you are ignorant of the history of taiji, it's operational principals, methodology, philosophy and intention - none of which is my problem m8 lol :bang: Now go away and flex your biceps or something.... :Angel:
How much of that is real and how much did you invent? I remember from another thread that you said you were inventing (my word but your point) disarms! If you are in a situation where you can win or lose then you are competing. If there is another person involved, you are competing against that person. The fact that you may get something out of losing does not mean that you should not try to win, nor does it mean you are not in competition. The reason I'm arguing is because your so funny when you get angry!!! And for a guy with no ego, you are easy to get going.
TJB-the wavelength was not meant to be offensive. Silly fun rather,but with a real question.Your sarcastic smiley led me to think you were dismissing these things as "of the external" in a derogatory wavelength.I just meant those guys tried,competed,and yes,some probably received injuries in training or challenges.(Cheng,Man-ch'ing was knocked out by Yang,C-f twice in t'ui shou.That's two concussions).So I wondered if that meant they were wai-jia boxers to you.I see from your further postings you would consider they were doing something (competing) that is the antithesis of good TC to you.OK.( The line I was responding to had nothing to do with gloves,the classics,etc).Didn't mean to get yer dander up,sorry.(Ya didn't have ta yell at me :cry: )
All of it is "real" As for making up disarms, does it matter how a technique is done, or does it matter that it works? I would much rather have an untext-book technique that works than have a pristine technique that couldn't fend off a fruit fly. Until you come and train with us, you will not know what we do.
In EVERY situation you can win or lose, and the matter of winning is relative... in everyday life you win or lose, one day you think you lost something, years later you realise thah you actually won... you must not mix living and competing... competing was added to living by people, who were not satisfied with life, but wanted something more...they wanted to win, to be winners...on the top... i did traditional karate for 7 years and stoped when my school turned into sports, competiton, because i saw what it did to my collegues... don't get me wrong, in TJQ you have some BIG BIG egos, but still, the whole idea is not to compete with others but with your self... about the street? i use it for walking, thank you...
Wuchi - nice points I agree 100% El Medico, sorry if I snapped - as you can see some people here get their kicks from winding me up - their karma lol (keep racking up those injuries til you learn about karma being every thought, word and deed Liokault... ) I agree, (and this is an old subject that is dealt with elsewhere...) But the real definition of waijia is not just everything but the 'big three' IMAs, it is not so simple as that, waijia is crude, physical methods which are easy to learn and do in a short amount of time, use muscular, aggressive force and favour the young and fit, where weight, 'strength' and size determines things more than skill and internal power. From this pov, someone with a quite limited skill at Taiji form can easily punch and strike with waijia power, just speeding up and hardening your moves can do that. I actually think that's quite useful early on, but not in the long-term... You yourselves have found a second solution, which is to train with (against?) practitioners of other styles - no probs with that, I crosstrain when I can. What I dislike is only the competition rather than mutual learning and particularly the 'our taiji is better than yours' attitude of ejits like liokault and Richard Dunn tbh (see above) perhaps, I think it's the way you do it that counts... Depends on how they are taught imo, but yes, I have seen lots of that in tjq and been there myself before I started to 'get the message' lol we incorporate some 'kickboxing' in our outdoor sessions btw Through bloody hard work lol Half and half. Being creative is good Tao imo. I have learnt technical stuff and I also like to 'see what happens' - yin and yang = good tjq. My ninpo instructor quoted: "Take the technique, make the technique, then, break the technique" that means don't stop and get hung up if you are 'doing it wrong' - there is no such thing - continue and develop from wherever you are until your opponent is finished, regardless of orthodoxy :yeleyes: There is no fixed reality, Liokault - when you know taiji, you will understand that, I hope lol I used parentheses for this very reason, thanks for pointing that out though lol What I mean is I learn with the person I'm training with, I may try to 'beat' them for two reasons, 1.) To practice my technique, 2.) To give them something 'real' to work with - but I accept 'defeat' as part of learning - I NEVER try to 'beat' someone to make myself feel good - that is pure ego and a waste of time imo I agree, but you're wrong anyway lol Incorrect, the reason you are arguing with me is because you're an obnoxious **** Your words and concepts again. I never said I had 'no ego'. Having no ego means you have no self, no identity, no personality - in short you are dead lol The only issue is whether you control your ego or whether it controls you. Do you "ride the tiger" or does it ride you? I have an ego the size of a planet and sometimes it gets the better of me, but that's why I keep working on it. You're just serving yours imo but hey carry on, you mildly amuse me... Is your 'street' padded out btw? :yeleyes: bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :yeleyes: :Angel:
It depends if the point of competing is to win, or if the point of competing is to test and improve YOURSELF. I use the street for walking, I use the str33t for making fun of Butterfly.
Well, Does it work? Care to post a vid clip? If you can post a clip of an empty hand knife disarm that really works and is not co-operative I will personally come to your class and braid Butterfly's hippy beard.
Agree with the first line... very true... The second is sometimes true but dont forget the reverse can apply and not just to the "bad" guys... The last point is wrong... competing was NOT added by people but by nature itself (or the Dao if you like)... competition is NOT a man made phenomena... the last I have to say is the kind of drivel that turned our kids fat by taking away sport (eg rugby and soccer etc) because "competing in bad mmmkay"...
playing soccer wiht friends is very different to playing it as a profesional sportsman, every profesional sport is trying to push you over the limit...you compete too much...i'm not trying to say that when you practice wushu with your partner you should lose...you should practice...whoever wins is not important... it's just a viewpoint... something you think before you start sparing.... not; **** im gonna kick him soo much rather; ok lets try this and this and have fun is not life about having fun ????
Just so happens I've come into possesion of a digital video camera recently. Tell you what, you tell me how you want my partner to attack with the knife (in this way, we can avoid the "what if he did this?" arguement. you tell me different attacks, and i'll respond to them.) Also, butterfly doesnt have a beard. I suggest that if all you can do is throw childish insults at other members, you leave MAP and maybe try somewhere like bullshido, where trolls are welcome.
competing/testing. If you test your skills against another and the only thing you are interested in is beating your opponent, then you are wasting time. But, if what you are interested in is learning how your techniques work, and are not at all bothered by winning or losing, then you are learning and training. You get more out of it because you don't have a preset idea about what's going to happen. You aren't hung up on the result. It's only a competition when the outcome matters. What's this thread about anyway?
lol agree 100% vampyre - I think the thread is basically about the results of ego's getting out of control in Tjq practitioners.....
