Anyone's Taiji Look Like This?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by onyomi, Dec 24, 2005.

  1. cullion

    cullion Valued Member


    Those clips are too big for me to receive by mail. Put them up on'yousendit' or somesuch file transfer service and post the URL here. I should note that the size of the people involved is irrelevant when they are cooperating, either consciously or because they are suggestible.
     
  2. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Thats what the push hands exercises are for, training sensitivity. Sparring is training fighting, using all the skills you have trained against a guy who is trying to hit you. We are not talking of using huge boxing gloves here, and to punch a guy you need to make a fist anyway. Gloves we use you can still grip or palm strike. To train without equipment you would need a good dentist, good hand conditioning and a healthy dose of mental instability.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2006
  3. tccstudent

    tccstudent Valued Member

    Hey, all I know is the old TCC masters never trained or sparred with gloves on. FWIW.
     
  4. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    People used to box barenuckle too. Don't tell me the 'old boxing masters' didn't spar.
     
  5. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    More treacle lol

    Didn't have time for a full answer earlier, so here's one now...
    Not really imo. The 'force' in Star Wars is a fiction to add spice to a children's story, a bit like the 'wire fu' you see in Chinese Kung Fu movies is a kids embellishment of qing gong as well as a folk interpretation of the 'flying' metaphors used for spiritual elevation in Taoist and Buddhist Sutras. You are right that said force is difficult to use in 'reality' but that does not mean it is not 'a' reality in itself.
    As I said when I joined this debate, I refuse to take sides on this matter for a number of reasons.
    I have experienced too many wierdnesses in my life to dismiss the idea of qi and qi manipulation (my preferred term for the 'energy work' being described) BUT I have not felt 100% convincing evidence of being moved by qi myself - despite my believing I MAY have been moved by qi!! Something happened - but what? I have seen strange things in the flesh, but I never pay too much attention to internet clips or video footage - you just can't tell what's really happening either way. I have been in clips that look like nothing when lots is going on and also where what I consider physical appears to be mystical. I have also seen footage of events I was present at that does not show any of the 'energy work' I was aware of at the time! Clips will only convince you of what you already believe ime.
    I am always reminded of the 'X-Files' poster that said: "I want to believe" in these cases. BUT again, just because there is co-operation does NOT mean there is NOTHING going on either. It's complicated lol :rolleyes: My advice is to always keep an open mind, but not so open that any old crap can fall into it!! :yeleyes:
    Well, one definition of 'magic' is that which cannot be explained by science (yet) but that nevertheless appears to exist, so maybe you're right!! My personal opinion is to avoid polarisation in these debates in case you miss out on something useful!! I like science AND mysticism, Martial Art AND wierd qi games tbh - do they cross over? Only in some vary strange places ime...
    Unphysical? Everything that exists is both physical and unphysical imo Is electricity physical? Are thoughts and feelings physical? Yes AND no depending on how you look at it - THAT'S why I avoid polarisation. The 'yes' or 'no' answer only matters if it's useful to you imo :cool:
    Personally I've always found those clips to be highly dubious. At some level there is certainly manipulation going on - and that is the key word here imo - my feeling is that if you let go physically and mentally all sorts of unexpected stuff may happen. A year ago (despite my scepticism) I was lifted up to the ceiling by four (untrained) people using only their first two fingers in my living room in front of many witnesses. Qi trick? Party trick? BS? All I know is I was blown away by it and they did it again just to show it wasn't a fluke :) Useful in martial art? Nope! Proof of Qi? Not really, just a wierd happening imo. I can do the trick shown in 'Kick Ass Moves' where he pulls and pushes someone from range HOWEVER it doesn't always work - but that variance is not based entirely on co-operation imo, because I don't warn the person what's 'supposed' to happen first and they can't see what I'm doing. BUT again, I did notice that one of the most powerful responses I've ever had was from a lady I'd done healing work on in the past. (What is fagong, qi healing, reiki etc? would make another thread entirely and again cause similar polarisation lol)
    I understand Richard's pov and theoretical grounding more or less 100% but I do not think this stuff is as practically applicable as he thinks (based on my experiences so far). I also don't think it 'proves' anything any more than putting on gloves and battering each other in the name of 'true' Taiji does lol! My principal beef with him is his snotty attitude tbh the same as it is with Liokault - both are exactly the same imo - ie their minds are closed and they get off on being 'right' and 'winning' arguments (hahaha :D ) - that limits their Taiji journey imo but hey ho that's up to them I guess
    Hope that makes things a bit clearer - Taijiquan is Yin AND Yang, practicality AND mysticism imo/e that's what makes it great!
    Peace
    :Angel:
     
  6. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Just to add - I have trained with gloves and without - both have their uses and both have their limitations imo
    You CAN do both you know... :rolleyes:
    Polarity polarity polarity mutter mutter mutter :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: lol
    :Angel:
    (just waiting for Richard's blood to come to the boil now..... :yeleyes: )
     
  7. Richard Dunn

    Richard Dunn Banned Banned

    No can do! nobody accepts files that big (unless anyone knows different). I still see the only option is by email. I am not webmaster at A of E so they cannot go up there. I can email them to someone who can host them.
     
  8. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    yousendit.com accepts files up to 1gb in size. Just post the URL you get back from them here.
     
  9. Richard Dunn

    Richard Dunn Banned Banned

  10. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    The reason 'the force' is 'difficult' to use in real life, is because it doesn't exist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2006
  11. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    More 'energy' demos. Why not show us the martial training ? you know, the stuff which Yang Luchan is supposed to have used when he had no option ?
     
  12. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    Taijibutterfly, I think you deserve a fuller reply, as you've made the effort to make courteous and full answers to me, despite me agreeing with Liokault's position.

    I may not fully understand what you're stating your beliefs to be. Your statement about metaphors for philosophical things suggests that you don't actually believe that an invisible force field permeates the material world which can be used to perform feats which defy modern physics.

    What you seem to be saying is that the poetic descriptions which the chinese are fond of permeates their literature about health and martial arts, in much the same way that such language permeates the christian bible, when there are actually very 'down to earth' underlying messages which are intended as advice for how to live a satisfying life (which people today are free to disagree with), but couched in 'symbolic' terms (mixed in of course with 1st century AD misconceptions about how the material world works, which if people still believed it today despite the knowledge mankind has worked hard to uncover since then, would rightly be termed 'superstition').

    Now, if this is the case, then you and I both understand metaphors about 'flying' to mean something quite different from a literal 'do these exercises, and one day my son, you will defy gravity!'.

    If Tai Chi is to regain it's reputation as a credible martial art, then it would be very helpful if people delineated more clearly between the taoist philosophical symobolism which some people happen to find helpful for their own personal peace of mind, and descriptions of phenomenal objective reality (the reality of , 'if you do such and such, then so and so is the likely result, as can be repeatably demonstrated by experiments with people never before met').

    Richard seems to have dived headlong into a wilful literalisation of this symbology, for the purpose of convincing his students that he has magical powers. Which of course will be of no use to them in a self-defence situation, and makes the rest of us look like idiots when non-Tai Chi practitioners come to evaluate Tai Chi as a martial art for the first time. Liokault is saying, in a very direct way, please stop making Tai Chi sound like a new-age religion. I hope I have explained in more amenable terms why that would be a good thing. I am not trying to tell you it's wrong to be a taoist, or a buddhist, or whatever other personal belief you hold, I am just trying to point out that blending the symbology of those ideas in to a discussion of martial arts is often confusing, and can be very off-putting to people who might otherwise get a lot from the MA of TCC.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2006
  13. Richard Dunn

    Richard Dunn Banned Banned

    Who said this?
    "One must distinguish the pure from the motley. Many practice taiji nowadays but it is not the real taiji. The real has a different taste, and is easily distinguished. With real taiji, your arm is like iron wrapped with cotton. It is soft and yet feels heavy to someone trying to support it. You can feel this in push-hands practice. When you touch an opponent, your hands are soft and light but he cannot get rid of them. When you attack, it is like a bullet penetrating cleanly and sharply (gan cui), yet without using any force. When he is pushed ten feet away, he feels a little movement, but no strength and no pain. In touching him, you don't grab him. Instead you lightly adhere to him so that he can't escape. Soon his two arms become so sore he can't stand it. This is real taiji. If you use force, you may move him. But it will not be clean and sharp. If he tries to use force to hold or control you, it is like trying to catch the wind or shadows. Everywhere is EMPTY. It can be likened to walking on gourds on the water. You cannot get to where the substantial is. Put simply, the real taiji is marvelous."
     
  14. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    Google tells me it was Yang Chen Fu. You willfully fail to understand poetic symbolism, don't you ?
     
  15. Richard Dunn

    Richard Dunn Banned Banned

    No matter what I write you still say the same things. So you are the expert on this so lets see you do some!! This not magic powers, I have never said it is magic power. It is mundane training. I have explained exactly what is happening in previous posts yet you are so blocked you cannot even read. The energy of the body functions (without it you are dead), through feeling it can be learned to attach your intent to it. You can also through sensitivity feel others energy and you can attach your own to it. Then via that path you can dominate their energy with *your* intent and superceed their instruction. I do nothing but that, my mind says push yourself back and their energy obliges and motivates their muscles to do the job. But most of what you see is a combination of physical and energetic. They cannot exist in isolation. That combination is Tai-Chi that is what Yang Lu Chan used according to my teacher.
     
  16. Richard Dunn

    Richard Dunn Banned Banned

    Who tells you it is poetic sybolism. My teachers tells me not to change a single word. You are making excuses for lack of understanding. And flaying in the wind to justify your ignorance.
     
  17. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    No Richard, I am giving a very straightforward rational explanation as to why your students seem willing to pretend (at least on a subconcious level) that
    you have the power to make one of their limbs stick to the floor, or their torso, when you are unable to do these things to people who haven't been subject to your influence for a prolonged period.
     
  18. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    There is a very good reason why I keep saying the same things, and it is because you are yet to prove in any objective way what you claim.

    No, it is the psychology of suggestion at work.

    Of course you haven't, and I wouldn't expect you to.

    So why can't you demonstrate it on a skeptic then ? Yang Lu Chan must have been pretty bad at the 'last resort' if his abilities only worked on his own students.
     
  19. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    No me too TB... the sort of thing displayed in those clips is pure unadulterated hogwash... that sort of mincing, prancing dancing thing from a little touch... Bah Humbug....
     
  20. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    That is me to a t... I am just on (or over depending on if its xmas day or not!!) 18stone, used to body build avidly and am just under 35... however it looks like you are boring the guy to sleep... either that or youre doing the vulcan neck thing...
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2006

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