Any thoughts on Cheng Man Ching Style?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Tigger, Jul 10, 2004.

  1. MartialArtsSnob

    MartialArtsSnob New Member

    Shanzi,
    Thank you.

    NOTE TO SELF: Listen very carefully to what Shanzi has to say!
     
  2. Shanzi

    Shanzi New Member

    And, thank you, gentlemen.

    It seems to me, sometimes, that there are few areas in life where true dedication to impeccablity is the rule. Insecurity, ego, fame, beau geste hautiness of man... seduce us away from the harder work.

    Let this not be the case for us.

    Here's to integrity and solidarity in the transmission and perpetuation of internal martial arts...

    ...this legacy is our responsibility to the ancients, to our teachers and to our students.


    shanzi
     
  3. MartialArtsSnob

    MartialArtsSnob New Member

    Shanzi,
    I have a question for you. When I was in massage school I had a thought concerning Chi. They taught us that the connective tissue forms a continuous “Web” that permeates the entire body: including the bones, tendons, ligaments, and the fascia that covers all of the organs, muscle groups, muscles themselves and even each muscle cell. I have read that the tiny structural pieces of the connective tissue when broken open contain cerebrospinal fluid. Bear with me here. In reading about Tai Chi there has been mention of the “Chi pumps”, what I read talked about the idea that breathing was a secondary aspect of respiration, the primary aspect had to do with the movement of the plates of the scull and the sacrum for the purpose of pumping cerebrospinal fluid throughout the central nervous system. Now for my question. Could this mean that there is a “circulatory system” of cerebrospinal fluid throughout the body? Does it then follow that the practice of Tai Chi is in part opening up the restrictions in this flow? If I am on the right track here then it would seem that when you “feel the flow of Chi” we could simply be gaining awareness of this phyisical process. Your thoughts?
     
  4. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    Hi MAS, that sounds good to me. It certainly could be that. I've never heard of this before though. I'll have to see what Shanzi says, he seems to know his stuff.

    Cheers
     
  5. Shanzi

    Shanzi New Member

    Good morning!

    Well now, there's a question. I'll give it a shot.

    Without engaging in a course on anatomy/physiology, there are several kinds of connective tissue, including blood! (Plasma cells are derived from B-lymphocytes and secrete antibodies). CT is in fact, found throughout the body, as fibroblasts manufacture and maintain the extracellular material. Adipocytes store energy. When you have a LOT of stored energy in these cells... everyone can see it. (belly, butt, you get it... do more aerobics).

    Collagen fibres, reticular fibres form a supportive network in many organs and basement membranes. These prevent prolapses (dropping) of various organs, bowels, structures and suspended tissue systems. Elastic fibres serve to compose a flexible support (as in the aorta).

    None of these contain cerebrospinal fluid (CSF). Its domain is in the ventricles of the brain the intracrainial spaces and the spinal cord.

    Many "newage" [pronounced newidge] systems describe circulations, rhythms and movements of the CFS that can be palpated in movement at the sutures (joints of the plates) of the skull. In an adult, these sutures are fused solid permitting no movement, protecting the brain.

    We do have four circulatory systems in the body. Three are well known to the West: The vascular (blood), lymphatic (lymph) and the nervous system which is solid, not tubular like the latter two, and circulates only electrochemically produced energy (like a wire).

    Regarding breathing, I think it has as its primary function, gas exchange. And in Chinese medicine, is the only source of da or tian qi (the great or celestial qi) Although its secondary effect is supportive of lymphatic circulation as the rib cage rises and falls (the other support is the long muscles in the legs, contracting and relaxing. This also circulates lymph which has no other "pump". See also the adage, below).

    According to the Chinese medical classics: Huangdi Neijing Suwen Lingshu (The Yellow Emperor's Inner Classics, Basic Questions and the Cosmic Hinge, circa 2500 - 500 BCE) there is a fourth circulatory system that is composed of, and also provides distribution of, qi.

    [aside: Qi does not really translate well as 'energy'. Better is 'force', like force field, gravitational force, electromagnetic force, like life force. But we use 'energy' knowing what we mean. Luke: "You mean it controls our actions?" Obiwan: "Partly. It also obeys our commands".]

    Qi comes in many forms for the medical practitioner and some 18 (plus) forms are well beyond the scope of this venue. But the three primary forms: Ying (nutritive/structive) Wei (defensive) and Yuan (ancestral i.e. genetic) flow respectively in the 12 jingluo (channels and co-laterals) their secondary channels, and the Baqimai (8 curious vessels), as the basic networks.

    It is this system we engage in acupuncture, and equally, in taijiquan, in internal martial arts (as well as the other three physiologic ones).

    It is the unimpeded "flow" of these very same forms of qi through these channels that is sought in both health enhancement and in sticking, following, receiving, issuing, etc. Simultaneous enhancement is inevitable. Though you must train specifically to employ this energy, in a useful (highly skillful) way, in combat.

    Beginning students often ask: "How can I better feel my qi?"

    It reminds me of Stephen Hawking, when asked what happened before the big bang, said: "It's like asking what happens one mile north of the north pole? The question itself makes no sense."

    We do not feel our qi. We feel with it. We feel our body, one piece, alive. We feel our proprioceptive location, we feel our environment, we feel our opponent. And we feel them with our qi. The more freely it circulates, the more "radiant" in becomes, the better we feel with it.



    [from above, re: breathing]

    Old Irish adage, to live forever.

    Only eat when you are hungry
    Only drink when you are dry
    Only sleep when you are tired
    But don't stop breathin' or ye'll die.


    Hope that adds some fodder for thought,
    may the qi be with you,

    off to work,

    Shanzi
     
  6. Darkstorm

    Darkstorm Valued Member

    One possible reason why Cheng Man Ching is not widely known in China is because of the political conflict and rivalry between China and Taiwan. Cheng Man Ching may have been seen by the China government as pro-Taiwanese.
     
  7. BigAl

    BigAl New Member

    More than 1 instructor

    I have found it enlightening to take TaiChi from more than one instructor. Regardless of who's teaching, and what style, everyone has a unique body & mind that is their own to work with. I have found that I have learned something from every instructor I have had that helps me to make TaiChi my own and to adapt it to me. If it's CMC or Yang, etc., no 2 people do the form exactly the same, and each form has strengths and weaknesses, all different for each individual. Fighting over who's form is best is like fighting over your favorite food. Everyone has their own tastes and what is best for one may not be the best for another. I personally prefer classes that have a pretty even split between form and application. I think it is of great benefit to try as many forms of TaiChi as you can. The subtle, and drastic changes from form to form and instructor to instructor will help you to adapt TaiChi to your body & mind, and will also keep you from becoming too rigid in your idea of what TaiChi is. As a self defense, you must be able to adapt to your attacker, and practicing the form in many different ways will help you to be flexible in your approach. One thing that does amaze me is that many schools do not do any application at all. No sticking hands, no push hands, no jing yu, no chi building exercises. If your instructor does not do these things, I suggest you try to find someone who does, and try them for yourself. But above all, keep an open mind to alternatives that exist.

    "The highest virtue is like water" - Water changes in response to it's surroundings. Is it in a stream bed, or a vessel? River or Ocean? Is it rain, or snow, or ice, or sweat on your brow, or tears in your eyes? In any of these forms it is still water. The same but different. The essence of the Tao. We must teach oursleves to be water. We must be able to adapt to any form.
     
  8. gurugeorge

    gurugeorge Valued Member

    Interesting - do you have any pointers to web stuff or literature you read about the cerebrospinal fluid thing?

    The fascial web does seem to be involved in some deep way with both acupuncture and martial arts, and that, along with the principles of alignment and leverage, bids fair to be the closest thing we have to an explanation in terms of biomechanics for the "qi" phenomenon, if one isn't prepared to go the whole hog with mysterious "life energy" stuff. Personally, I think the traditional "qi" story is probably no more valid than our own mediaeval medicine of "humours", etc., so the possibility of explaining the unusual effects of acupuncture and martial "qi" in biomechanical terms is attractive.

    There's a fascinating book by a Rolfing-type massage guy by the name of Myers I think, called "Anatomy Trains". In that book he has a good image for the fascial network and musculature. If you think of our anatomy as being a network of collagenous fibres with bags that are filled with electrical jelly, strung on a bone frame that is itself continuous with the collagen, it gives a good sense of how the the body is, actually, already united, whole, how it could be understood to move as a whole.

    In particular, Myers has identified principles by which "lines" of continuity can be seen in the network - lines that, oddly enough, match pretty closely the lines of the "muscle meridians" in Chinese medicine!
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2004
  9. Shanzi

    Shanzi New Member

    Sounds most pleasant. Perhaps in future, would be nice.

    shanzi
     
  10. Mad Yakker

    Mad Yakker Valued Member


    Keep up the good works, Shanzi. I can see Tao, anywhere in u... :)
     

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