Any body got any questions about hung gar or five animals styles?

The full name of the Hung gar style “Nam silum hung gar Kuen” can be translated as "Southern Shaolin Hung family boxing".

The whole shaolin thing is problematical – not least because there is no generally recognised documentary evidence of what shaolin kung fu was. There is little or no generally recognised documentary evidence of how much was shared between different styles of monastic kungfu. Neither is there any generally recognised documentary evidence of how much shaolin and other monastic styles survived the cultural revolution.

Given these circumstances it is entirely down to opinion as to whether it is accurate to describe Hung gar as a Shaolin style.

As a practitioner of the style I take the use of Shaolin in the name to be a recognition of the contribution that monastic arts made to the foundations of the style. As such it is both legitimate and accurate to call Hung Gar a Shaolin style.

 

Ha Say Fu is a system (or collection of systems) from Maoming in Southeast Guangdong. Whether it is actually a form of Hung Gar by our modern understanding is debatable.
This is classically understood Hung Gar

 

No, that's a perversion of the old Karate shuto story of "pull his heart out and show it to him".

P.S.-that hand configuration is not an animal hand.It has symbolic meaning.

Tom's holding back! The animals also refer to strategies and mindsets.

Only that you're really not supposed to fight other Hung folks.In theory.

Mainly because there is not even one system which can be authenticated as originating at Shaolin.And there's no "southern" Shaolin in actuality. Even if a Fukien temple is someday found it won't be "Shaolin" as the order was absorbed into another sect hundreds of years before any of the present systems existed.Something Iron Fist never understood.Hope he's reading.

"Monastic" gung fu seems to have simply been whatever the individuals were practicing.Which generally but not always were whatever systems were common to the area.

Given there's no evidence to support the idea, it certainly doesn't look like any northern system ,and many other southern systems claim without any substantiation to descend from Shaolin---extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.Or just run of the mill proof would be good enough for me.Opinions need some reason for existing other than just "our tradition".

As a former practitioner of this system wishing an education please point me to these specific contributions. I take the use of the Shaolin name to be 19th century marketing.

I don't think it's accurate to call it such,but it's "legit" in the sense that it has been marketing itself as such for quite awhile,so the label has become customary.Which don't mean it's accurate.

I mean,ya wanna hear the Chang,San-feng T'ai Chi origin? Didn't think so.

 

A kung fu teacher in Hong Kong once struck me in the point just below my sternum with a spear hand as part of a demonstration. It might not be your or my choice of hand shape with which to hit anyone, but with whatever conditioning he'd been doing for however long, it was a surprisingly horrible experience.

 

If that didnt look like a start to one of those "this is their secret" videos i dont know what is.

It kind of bugs me how some of this knowledge is kept to pass down basis just for wanting to learn how they do it. What process do they go to to condition their bodies to that extent? I think the mystery is more in recovery methods than what they do to condition themselves. ( i know why they might not want it to be open knowledge but the curious mind must know)

Thats leading to another question: What do they do conditioning wise in Hung Gar?

 

I don't know you really need to do a lot of conditioning to hurt someone by ramming your fingers into their solar plexus (it after all being a soft target). Just decent forms practice should make it stiff enough for that.
Lot's of Hung Gar people practice iron palm, and one of the pillars is the internal strength from Iron Wire which has iron body like elements

 

I'm curious, could you give a rough overview of how the trunk is used in HGK? For example in Karate in general, barring probably some really old methods with which I'm not acquainted, the breathing and postural principles are not too dissimilar to what's used in weight training (bracing against full lungs, stacking the body to overcome resistance, etc). Is Hung Gar similar, or do you have any methods or practices that differ? (I remember Tom once talking about how the sounds in the forms accompanied tensing the muscles in different ways, for example)

 

I think that's something you'll need Tom to tell you. It's been a long time since I did any serious Hung Gar training, and I wasn't that into the nuts and bolts of it when I was.

 

Yeah I frankly did not believe it for one second but I was specifically interested in hearing Tom's opinion for the slightly awkward reason that it was the sigung in his lineage that told it to me.

Yeah that sounds familiar. I forget what it means. I was taught it as a striking fist also (in a set with sun, moon, hammer and some animal fists like crane and tiger) which is probably why I've erroneously lumped it in with the animals. It's application seemed a little off though: you jabbed your index into one eye while your folded knuckles smashed into the other eye with the nose bridge slotting into the gap. Seemed a bit unlikely at the time. You remember it's name?

 

Snakes tongue, a single finger poke, with the 2nd knuckles of the hand as backup if the finger misses. To be used in situations were you think that poking someone in the eye is an appropriate thing to do. Done as a cross strike (e.g your right hand to their right eye). If your finger just misses eye you get the bridge of there nose with your knuckles.

Off use in a limited number of situations, and of limited damage effect if little conditioning has been done. But if the opportunity arises it can steal a beat of time, and possibly promote a defensive reaction from someone leading to an opening for a more substantive action.

 

Not awkward at all. People get the wrong end of the stick all the time. Sounds like there was a hiccup in communication. As far as pulling bits out of people. We only practice one technique that has any possibility of doing that.

When doing a tiger hand strike to the jaw the intention is to strike with the palm, then dig the fingers in under the jaw and pull back. It is potentially possible to dislocate the jaw with the palm strike. This would make the pull back more unpleasant. It is potentially possible to cause a compound fracture of the jaw with the palm strike. This would make the pull back really unpleasant indeed. Is it likely ? No . Does it change the way the technique is carried out? No. The technique is a approach to striking the head with the possibility of establishing a bonus grip and some kind of head control over your opponent.

 

Mmmh, I dunno. I mean he definitely said that strike was intended to penetrate the body and pull out a rib. He also said pretty much verbatim that if we didn't believe him we should "go to China and see them do this to watermelons. If you've ever tried to just break one of those suckers then you'll know how tough they are and you'll believe it." There wasn't much grey area.

I don't know what motivated that statement or to what extent that thinking is pervasive in the lineage and system at large; hence my question. At the time it struck me as being a quite unlikely but as I was less educated and he spoke authoritatively I didn't 100% write it off. It's only later down the line I reflected on it from a point of greater experience and viewed it as nonsense.

Over the few years I trained in Wei To I learned lots of value but also found lots and lots to be skeptical of. Certain form applications boardered insanity and in retrospect were frankly hilarious. This coupled with the form centric teaching and my experience of other combat sports made me move away and refocus my training. I was in my early twenties when I trained this and looking back I'd say it was a mixed bag and certainly not exempt from indulging in a bit of classical martial arts 'woo'.

I've occasionally revisited that statement in my head and it kind of bugs me so was curious what you thought. It's interesting that you write it off as idiotic but definitely to your credit. I know body conditioning is big in certain Kung Fu circles so maybe everyone thought it was plausible. I see that isn't the case.

 

OK I modified my response after you appeared to be giving the person the benefit of the doubt. Given the additional information you provide I am compelled to modify my response once more - the guy was a complete idiot.

Further I am genuinely appalled by appeal to "go to China and see them do this to watermelons" to justify this nonsense . This thinking is not representative of the linage or of the system at large in any way. In fact it goes entirely against a central tenant that my teacher taught by and that his teacher taught by, that effectiveness of any technique can only be proved in application. It is central to our organisation that martial arts should never be based on faith or belief. They should be only be based on intimidate practical experience.

I cannot speak to your personal experience. In my own experience I have I found the applications both practical and effective. In addition I have found the same applications used the same away to practical effect in sport arts, such as boxing, judo, bjj, and mma.

I have never personally encountered any of what you term "classical martial arts 'woo'" in the organisation. Unless you count my teacher showing me how to do the traditional tricks for a traditional kung fu demonstration and how these tricks have ordinary every day explanations.

 

Certainly I think Wei To is a great organisation. My teacher was a pragmatic man who crosstrained and I respect him and Jeff so I hope it doesn't come across as me taking a giant turd on them, because I'm really not. Despite that I feel that in the curriculum itself there are some highly dubious moments. One particular one that springs to mind is the double monkey steals the peach from what I can only describe as a 'good morning position's against a front and rear attacker throwing punches.

Jeff did say that about the watermelon and it raised an eyebrow. I don't know the motivation. I was curious if it was reflective of the org as a whole. I see that it's not.

The fundamental pugilism and kicking I picked up during my time in hung gar still helps me today. My instructor was a very competent teacher and I regret nothing regarding my time under him.

 

Just to clarify, Goef is the organisation, so what he says represents the organisation as a whole.

Goef does tell stories of the charters he met and the things he saw in his travels in Asia in the 70's. But these are stories, in the, getting on for 30 years, that he has been my teacher he as only ever taught me kung fu though actually applying the practical technique to me. He has continually cautioned me not to take anything on trust as a student. And never to ask my students to take anything on trust from me as a teacher but to insist on practical demonstration. One of his mantras is that he wants to create thinking martial artists. I can also categorically say that the only applications ever taught for that finger tip strike are to soft targets such as the eye and the notch below the clavicle. No sticking holes in people, no pulling bones out. So I suppose we will just have to put the confusion down to a misunderstanding.

As for "classical Chinese martial arts woo", my personal experience of it is so lacking that i did not realise that it was my teacher you were referring to with the word Sigung. We never used Chinese terms when I was learning just plain English.

 

Different branches of Hung gar emphasise different mechanics to different extent. Last time you visited you showed me some karate exercises, (tension, floor griping, spiralling up the legs, engaging pelvic floor etc) which were spookily similar to those in parts of the iron thread form.

It might be helpful for you to describe how the trunk is used in karate and for me to point out the similarities and differences. Yes this is a tactic to get you to do the bulk of the typing - I have had a migraine for 4 months and am beginning to feel mildly fatigued.

Out of interest - are you likely to be heading this direction again in the near future? I have had a few insights since we last met. I am looking forward to sharing them with you in a hands on fashion.

 

Ok. Not sure in what way I misunderstood but I'm happy to drop it.

The 'woo' was referring to the applications in the forms one of which I mentioned and which you must know and teach. Lau gar 1 I believe?

Not to deride the entire style as I said, but it has it moments of strangeness that frankly conform to the stereotype of movie Fu flappery. To argue otherwise is to live in denial IMO. Again that isn't by default a damnation of everything within the broad curriculum.

 

Honestly, no idea when I might be across the pond again, may be a fairly long while, although I'd definitely love to meet up again

Karate-wise, the way I try to move at least, it's essentially using restricted exhales to increase trunk pressure with both ribcage and abdomen contracting at the same time, and activating the postural muscles on impact such that the forces received by my body through the contacting limb go from the shoulder, down the chest and abdomen, and to the front of the hips, rather than out through the back (spinal flexion, bit of rotation), while having my hips stable so that the trunk movement puts my upper body into the movement rather than moving the pelvis (so there is a "stacking" of forces to create as closed a kinetic chain as possible)

 

Using a finger to punch holes in coconuts and stuff is a classic "hard qigong" trick. People do it, but not so much these days. If I could poke holes in coconuts with my index finger, I might be able to convince myself I could poke holes in people too.

 

the way i think of it in hung gar is erecting a tent around an inflatable ball. The poles of the tent are the skeleton (backbone and rib-cage in particular) and the muscles that support the skeleton. The fabric of the tent is the skin fasia and connective tissue. the guy ropes for the tent are the remaining muscles and tendons. the ball is the lungs. which have a feedback relationship with the rib-cage.

by balancing the tension in the various components one can direct the reactant forces of a strike towards the feet. sometimes the pelvis is locked into neutral and is not allowed to open. this tends to restrict movement to the torso. when this happens the torso often acts as a bow with the tips of the bow being at the top of the spine and the front of the hips. But the pelvis can be allowed to open. when this happens the whole body can act as a bow with the top of the spine and the bubbling wellsrping point on the foot being the top and bottom of the bow respectively. When doing this the leg muscles that attach inside the pelvis towards the back form a chain/core with the muscles of the pelvic floor and lower back. linking the upper and lower body.