This might be the singko tiros in FMA coincidence to our natives arts.But ,we always make it more simple it is only forehand and backhand strikes and followed a thrust to the stomach,throut,eyes and to the heart.I think Filipinos followed the milatary system or pirate cutlass,this is just my opinion coz the weapons were not the same forms and function ... Mabuhay Gat Kalislash
not all sea ma's name their strikes. the silat i've played and seen (indonesian and malaysian) just called their strikes 'this way' or 'like this.' the jurus are numbered, though. in many fma, the strikes are named as well as numbered (tatang san miguel, aldabis, saboy, etc.). i was told once that naming the strikes is the old way, and numbering is the new way - that it makes it easier for a 'western' mindset to learn. i didn't think to ask whether the 'western' mindset was that of foreigners or modern filipinos. tim
I think you mean "Tagang San Miguel", "taga" being the Tagalog word for "slash" or "chop". "San Miguel" is the Archangel St. Michael, often depicted wielding a sword raised to deliver a #1 strike to Satan, as in the picture below (from a famous brand of gin in the Philippines called Ginebra San Miguel)
I think we would find more FMA styles naming their strikes if this was true, as many of them still stick to the old ways, but what we see is the vast majority of systems using the numbering of strikes which is akin to the European methods of teaching weapons. The X strike follwed by the mid section thrust is also very common in European sword schools. I dont think the numbering system was adopted to suit the western mind set, I think it may be more true to say that the European weapons systems have played a role in the development of weapons systems of the Philippines. A little off topic here, I am sure you will be aware of the late GM Momoy Canete's system called San Miguel, now he named his system after St. Micheal (not the beer as some think)as you all too often when you see a statue or picture of San Miguel (St Micheal) he is standing in the hook stance possition (look at the picture on the Ginbera San Miguel Bottle), the San Miguel System is known for it's hook stance and the late GM Momoy was trained by the Saveedra's who also had a European influence. Best Regards Pat
All strikes fall into the slash, snap, thrust, circular and fan all of which have names, for instance Abaniko (Spanish in origin) for fanning strike. But particular strikes to individual areas be they slashes, thrusts, fanning strikes, circular strikes in the majority of systems and styles have numbers, I can see the that many systems and styles would all adapt to the western mindset, too much of a coinsidance and it is more likely that the Spanish played a role in the development of the weapons systems in the Philippines. Best regards Pat
The cinco followed the triangle pattern of the Katipuneros and the numbering system.Was from the Filipino ingenuity to make more easy to teach and every style have their own mode of teaching...In the western influence were the fire-power that they introduced to the military.Almost most of my ancestors fight with the natives weapons which is far beyond to this advanced weapons.
But beleive it or not the Westerners also used swords and daggers, used a numbering system for the strikes, and triangle or X pattern footwork. Remember in the 16th and 17th Centuary you had one shot muskets in a dam climate that were not too accurate, so the old fashioned was of being up close with your sword was still employed on the battlefield. So let's not give the impression that the Spanish only used guns against the native weapons for it is not true. Best regards Pat
Remember the Seven years war when the British troops attack Manila.Mostly the natives weapons were the same when Magellan came to the island...using the same old weapons confront with guns and cannons. :Alien:
just countering the implication that fma's don't know their strikes, and passing along what i've been told. i heard it from a tagalog practitioner; could be that the statement only holds true for tagalog arts. it's common in all sword schools, because it's an efficient way to use cut-and-thrust swords. i think it's all speculation. we don't know the state of pre-hispanic arts in the philippines, and we don't know much about spanish swordfighting other than la destreza, which is nothing like fma.
If you go to Cebu you will find the same teaching methods there as you do in Luzon, the strikes are given numbers, very much akin to European teaching methods (not just Spanish). I think there are those who would not like to admit that the Spanish did have an influence on how the MA's developed in the PI, some like to think that what we see as Eskrima - Kali - Arnis is pure Filipino indingenous fighting arts, but if we look closer it does not really hold up to scuteny. That is not to say that Eskrima Kali Arnis is not now pure Filipino as I know it is, they have taken something and changed it to become uniquely their own. True but they way it is taught is very European in it's approach. But there is enough information, manuals a documentation on European sword fighting and how it is taught, a trip to the British Library archives does hold a wealth of information on this subject and looking at these old texts you will see so many similarities that it cannot be put down to just simple coinsidance. Best regards Pat
i've never been to cebu or luzon, so i can't say. i also never said that tagalog arts don't number the angles. i'm simply saying that i was told by a tagalog practitioner that numbering angles is the 'new' way of teaching the arts from his area. i'm not one of 'those,' and neither is the man i heard this from. i'm just a man who doesn't like to make unnecessary assumptions or conclusions. yes, in all probability, european sword arts influenced fma to various degrees. what do we gain by stating that? or is it just to counter the claims that fma are 'pure' filipino and free from european influence? how so? i'm not well-versed enough in the swordfighting systems of the world to speak to that. tim
Could be so, as there are some clubs who do not have numbers, as a matter of fact they use very little terminology at all teaching more in the way of "You do this and I do that, then you do this and I can do that" approach. But the truth of the matter is the vast majority do and have for a long time used the numbering system. And when you say the 'new way', how new is the new way? 20th centuary, 19th, 18th, 17th??? as you say yourself there are no records of how what we now term as Eskrima / Kali / Arnis was practiced before the time of Magellan, if we did have a chance to see it, would it actually look anything like Eskrima / Kali / Arnis??? Are you not sure that Eskrima / Kali / Arnis is not a hybrid of Spanish MA's??? Some would say they are and some would disagree. It's not to counter anything but it is relevant to the question as the use of the numbering system was widely used in Europe, a fine example is shown at the Leed's Armoury where they have film footage of British Army Cavarly training from the first world war on how the sword fighting skills for the battlefeild were trained and put into practice, they also show how this more modern version if you like, developed from the older sword methods were taught to them. There is even diagrams showing the numbering striking system they employed that shows more than just coinsidental symilarities to how many Eskrima / Kali / Arnis systems are taught Well the numbering of strikes for a start, the footwork training using triangles etc, the counter for counter drilling to train reactions. I would seriously suggest looking at the old archives in the British Library regarding not only sword fighting methods for the battlefeild, the old English Cudgelling and stick-fighting methods of other parts of Britain and Europe. Yes we can say there is only so many ways to execute certain moves and there will be cross overs, but the similarities are far too numerous to be just written off as co-insidental. Why in all the other SEA Countries around the Philippines we do not see identical arts such as Eskrima / Kali / Arnis, even in their approched and teaching methods, it is very different to other SEA MA's, you never hear 'Dragon Whips Tail' 'Tiger Claws Monkey' 'Snake strikes Eagle'. The referance to Animals is more prominent even with their neigbours in Indonesia and Malayasia, yet in the Philippines we see the weapons as being the predominant attribute taught and the numbering instead of naming of strikes. I think you may find the European MA's played a much larger role in the development of Eskrima Kali Arnis than was first thought, have a read of the book Cebuano Eskrima (there is the tread about it on here) and look at their findings, they are not just unresearched quotes, saying and beleifs, even if you dont agree with all they may say in this book they have some very good arguments and evidence that back the European influence that cannot be discounted. I along with a freind first started researching the English Cudgel back in the mid 80's at the British Library and whilst doing this we also came across a lot of old manuscripts on jousting, dueling and the teaching of sword fighting skills, along with the academies that taught these skills, obviously we were more interested in the English stick fighting side of things but you could not but help come across the other areas as they were all interlinks, even the early development of what most now call Western Boxing was linked to this area, now both of us were and still are serious FMAers and at the time we were led to beleive that FMA was only from the Philippines and no where else, but on studying these old manuals we began to see more and more similarities not only in the fighting methods, but also in how they were taught, the similarities we so much tha even we back then could not say it was just mere co-insidence. I am sure I have photo copies of some of these old manuals somewhere, I will have to try and dig them out once I move into my new home. As I have said, what we see now and know as Eskrima / Kali / Arnis is even to my mind pure Filipino, but the European influence cannot be discounted and we cannot discount the fact that they may well have played a larger role than first realised. Best regards Pat tim [/QUOTE]
i really don't know. it was a passing comment that i didn't have time to ask about. i'm not attempting to argue that european arts had no influence on filipino arts.
I am not arguing either Bro I am simply listening your your side of the debate and answering your points based on my expeariances and conversatioans with others on the same subject. After all is that not what these forums are all about. Dabating and comming up with conclusions and answers if possible. Keep it up Bro you are raising some good points Best regards Pat
my mistake- your responses gave me the impression that you were mistaking my comments for those arguing against european influence. i'm merely attempting to point out the diversity of fma and european martial arts. i'll ask for clarification on the 'new way of numbering' comment and report what i hear. something of interest- last night i was talking to a person who is new to the system i study (garimot arnis). he had done a tagalog style before (lastra arnis), and was excited to learn that the cinco teros numbering system was the same. however, garimot has something that was new to him, that we call fighting stances. he said that they seemed very european, and now that he mentions it, i can see the similarity to the guards of european longsword. for instance, ochs (ox - in german traditions) and fenestra (window - in italian traditions) are similar to what we call binakaw (crane). i had never looked at it this way, because i had always seen them as similar to the sikap pasang (baiting postures) of silat. if i put a two-handed sword in my hand, though, and run through the cinco teros exercises, it does look similar to the videos i've seen of european longsword practitioners transitioning between guards. however, if i take the weapon out of my hand, or if i practice the buno stances, it looks similar to the postures of silat. tim
And that my freind is the wonder of FMA, look at the outside influences that the Philippines has had over the past 1000 years, it is an absolute melting pot of East meets West and to top it all of they have this nack of taking something you have and putting their own unique flavour to it, that is why I say that even though the FMA may have been influenced by the European fighting arts and some even say it may well be based to a large degree on it, they have put their own unique mar on it and made it their very own so Eskrima Kali Arnis is for all intense and purposes purely Filipino. Best regards Pat
