Alive self defence training with out sparring?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by taekwonguy, Jun 8, 2007.

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  1. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    Ok thats more like it, scenarios with both parties trying to beat the other earnestly, in these type of suits would be ideal. i am just against bulletman type giant head things like in this video

    http://youtu.be/P_sQLOiKkF0

    and the whole attacker cowering and giving up after a couple of shots. if you have an actual go at it , in suits like in those two vids, then yes that is usefull SD training. Sorry if I made you think otherwise, i did not know you meant this kind of suit.
     
  2. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    The bulletman is okay for beginners and people doing a short self defence course.At best it will build up a bit of realistic confidence,at worst it will build up a false sense of confidence.A lot depends on the skill of the man in the suit and his exposure to real life violence.
     
  3. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    There are for me 3 sides to self defence and you can only cover all 3 quickly on a short course. The rest you need to learn from others, experience or research.

    1) Physical - obvious the assaulting bit
    2) Mental - oh crap someone is hitting me, and after the incident as well - fear of going out etc, revenge attacks, legal issues.
    3) Legal - Oh crap I hit someone and police are here.

    All 3 of these are good critical points for self defence, many go into point 1, some point 2, even less go into point 3.
     
  4. altc

    altc Valued Member

    Just one thing about legal. That is waaaaaay too late to think legal. What to say to police is a poor way to think one is covering legal aspects. Important yes, but not the priority.

    We need to look at our entire way we train.

    Do we do 'finishing moves' in training once we take an attacker down? Problem.

    Do we always start by using strikes even against an aggressor who is arguing in our face? Problem.

    Do we ignore or play lip service to talking our way out of trouble in class? Problem.

    Is our honour too important to walk or even run away from an idiot aggressor? Problem.

    Do we drink in groups and regularly go out where fights happen? Problem.

    These are all very important legal considerations we all need to make waaaaay before punches are thrown. Legal considerations need to be made early and steer the entire way we train.

    We should not train in systems that put us directly in the firing line of the law then add on some feeble legal considerations on top. Legal use of force needs to be an integral part of training. One group that do this well is ISR Matrix.
     
  5. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    QFT

    One of the big differences between good self protection and good martial arts training is that good self protection training must be legally underpinned.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  6. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Hi Altc, sorry your assuming the points I put were in order of events and there not, they were just listed. I did though mention legal twice as it is under point 2 as well and the two to me are different.

    Point 2 - the mental bits would be things like, CAN I do a preemptive strike here? and knowing what is assault in your country and what is self defence, there are some black and white ones here in the UK?

    At point 3 you have actually done something, its good to know what to expect next and not many people will.

    I went through this process myself many years back and things do work differently in different countries. Here we are able to strike first in the right circumstances and it still be legal (knowing what your rights are on this before you do anything is what I cover as best I can, but after you did something I like to cover this as well and you can't get that out of a quick course.

    The rest comes through time and expeirence.

    I agree, did not say anything different.

    Finishing moves sound a little "mortal combat" for me but I get where your going. I find finishing moves to be whatever ends the confrontation if it gets physical.

    This could be pinning the guy to the floor in a hold (it would be hard to argue this is assaut, as you would have showed great restraint in your actions, if he is swinging for you, it its just words then sticks and stones etc) If though you have him in a neck crank or choke then they could be argued as assault but should you pin him then its hard to argue this is assault.

    I don't think many would advocate doing this all the time, its all purely down to the situation in hand, I don't think I implied it at all.

    I doub't anyone would

    Your list kind of drones on from there.

    The point I am making is you do a short course you will get short course results if your a novice. I did not say anything other than this.

    :hat:
     
  7. altc

    altc Valued Member

    Hey its all good Sonshu, im not attacking what you said, was just adding to it.

    I didn't want people reading to think, oh yeah, it is important to think of what to say after an encounter and think that is what legal considerations consist of. Legal should not be an add on, it should be integrated into everything we do. Im really hurt to hear you think the rest of the list droned on too. I'll try better next time lol :p
     
  8. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Hi Altc

    I am sure you won’t take it to heart but it did go on a bit. I lost interest around the use of honour when I think the word you wanted was pride.

    Also, about avoiding drinking, there are not many REALLY bad places to go out (depending on where you live).

    It’s all about being responsible and the trouble is you can teach good practice to some people, but even some martial artists are just idiots and will go get into trouble.
     
  9. altc

    altc Valued Member

    I think you are missing my point...

    Thats cool too.
     
  10. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    I think with respect your point was made wrongly, I stated "Legal" twice in my original post as I think its that important.

    You only picked up on point 3 implying it was too late to cover it at that point. I then explained it was also in point 2 and the reasons for it....job done :)

    You need to know what your about to do is correct in the eyes of the law BUT many martial arts teachers don't cover what to do AFTER you did it.
     
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Why do they keep there hands down after striking so much?
     
  12. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Probably due to one shot being enough.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTZRGRFEFoE&feature=related"]full bodyweight power slaping - YouTube[/ame]

    I have trained with him a few times and have never met anyone who hits harder,at least not from a pound for pound perspective.If you get clobbered its going to be lights out.
     
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    That is logically redundent, if you train your striking without keeping your hands up afterwards your setting yourself up for failure if your first shot isnt perfect, or if there are more then one of them. Conversely keeping a guard when its not needed wil not harm you at all.
     
  14. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    If you look at the clip you posted it was about pre-emptive striking.Dennis Jones,who taught Karl,considered the best pre-emptive strike to be where you walk up to a person and punch them full force in the head without revealing your intention.That is the reason for the hand being held in a natural position so you don't reveal your intent.The clip should be seen as a small segment of a system and not representative of the whole.
     
  15. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    Again with giant head gear, and guys going down after one strike. Doesnt work like that most of the time. train for the likely not the unlikely.
     
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    A I said hands up AFTERWARD. Unless your attackers are timetravellers doing something AFTERWARDS, shouldnt give away your intention in PREemptive striking.
     
  17. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    In the last part of the clip the guy was knocked clean out.I have seen the rest of that film and he was in a pretty bad way.The big helmet was a full face crash helmet with additional padding.If you can create that level of impact through that kind of protection you are,in my opinion,heading in the right direction.As I said in a previous post,big helmets are more useful for beginners and people should progress to drills that involve force on force rather than force with very limited resistance.

    Fusen
    Then in that case what exactly is your point? You are just stating the blindingly obvious.
     
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    My point is the video training had a major flaw in it. And your attempt to explain it away was nonsence.
     
  19. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Might it not be a better idea if you actually went and trained with him before forming an opinion? Whilst I don't agree with everything he does I do know that he hits very hard and is more than capable in what he teaches.Considering guys who have fought in Muay Thai and the cage have been prepared to endorse him speaks for itself.He also had a string of endorsements off the old Geoff Thompson forum by people who had trained with him rather than viewed a few clips.

    Its easy to say something is flawed when you don't understand the context.On other forums I have seen people rip into JWT's stuff but people on here seem to like it.Perhaps that is due to them training with him and actually understanding what he is teaching.
     
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I have no opinion on whether or not the guy teaching is good or not. But the video shown definataly had flaws in. That may be for many reasons. Either way getting all defensive about it isnt really helping anyone.
     
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