Aikido woman felt discriminated against

The generalized statement that there is an association between countries that practice the muslim religion and a lack of scientific/education, gender discrimination, and poverty only goes so far. Once you start talking about individual countries like Afghanistan there are obviously many other things to consider.

 

I agree that instability in the Islamosphere has harmed development. Still, there are examples of secular/Christian areas that have been through substantial levels of instability without anywhere near as poor outcomes. A good example is the Balkans.

Using Croatia as an example; although not as unstable as Afghanistan it has had political instability that is at least on a par with that in Iran or Saudi Arabia. As recently as 1995 Croatia was fighting the Croatian War of Independence. One major difference however, is that Croatia is a secular Christian state. Even with all the instability, wars, occupations that have been going on until fairly recently (in terms of political timescales), Croatia has 99.2% literacy, universal healthcare, and reasonable gender equality (with more women than men in tertiary education).

Even correcting for political instability, Islamic societies tend to rate poorly in terms of basic human rights. The role of the religion/culture cannot be ignored.

 

This. Plus the fact that there is such enormous variation between countries within the Muslim world. Just like there is between countries in the Christian world. Like in both cases having some of the richest and some of the poorest countries on earth. Obviously there are far more factors at play than just the religion.

Poverty is the easiest example to discount, given that some of the welathiest countries on the planet are Muslim. And the fact that in some cases thety are adjacent to some of the poorest also suggests that cultural factors aren't the reason. Oil is often the real reason. (Not Muslim oil or Christain oil, just oil.)

Education will very often be linked with wealth, since richer countries are better able to provide it. Female education is a different matter though, and ties in with the issue of gender discrimination. Clearly many Muslim countries do have issues where this is concerned. The case of the lass in Pakistan who was shot in the face for campaigning on the issue highlights the problem that exists in some countries. But it would be a big mistake to assume that it's a universal problem in Muslim societies. Millions of females in Pakistan achieve a high level of education. And it's a country which has had a woman prime minister. It isn't living in the Middle Ages - even if there are those like the Taliban who seem to wish that it was.

 

Can you give me an example of ANY rich country whose wealth distribution isn't poor?

The best would probably be the Scandinavian countries (I'm guessing) but even there the difference between richest and poorest will still be enormous.

Exactly.

 

I don't think it is simply a matter of countries having poor people, but also how those people are treated. I'd much rather be a poor person in Canada than a poor person in many other countries. Many people can't even afford to send their kids to school. We have countless people across the world who are being denied basic education simply because they are poor. Poverty also puts a strain on people's health and indirectly on the economy.

Poverty is essentially a black hole of self perpetated awfulness that hardly anyone escapes. It's little wonder that people in desperate situations want to believe in an afterlife.

 

That's very true.

I remember going on holiday in the USA for the first time and thinking that it woukld be a brilliant place to live. But then it occurred to me that while it would be a better place to live than the UK if you had plenty of money, it would probably be a much worse place if you were poor.

In theory I'd rather be poor in a warm country than a cold one. (Or than a really, really hot one.) But the reality is that being poor is soul-destroying regardless of where you live. When you can't see any way out then it just grinds you down. I've been there.

You don't really get the kind of poverty in this country that much of the world suffers from. Extreme cases are probably down to individuals who for one reason or another can't cope, and who have fallen through the social 'safety net'. I know that homelessness is unacceptably high, but it still leaves us nowhere near 'third world' levels of poverty.

 

This is stypically true of most coutries/nations but i believe that Kuwait is an exception. When the country struck oil the gains actually went to the Kauwait people. My information may be wrong but social welfare in Kuwait is that thousands £££££'s go to every child born (throughout their life). I recently watched a program about Kuwait becoming one of the fattest countries in the world because none of the Kuwait nationals work. All professions are outsourced by the government wither it be dr.s or McDonald workers.

The point being that the poverty line in Kuwait starts and stops with people actually working in the country.

Baza

 

I'm not saying the role of religion or culture can be ignored but I'm not convinced it's such a linear trajectory. Croatia for instance had a stable industrial and social period.

When I talk about history here I'm not talking about a couple of decades, in many cases I think we have to talk in terms of centuries.

Generally countries with a christian heritage are better of in terms of "egalitarian rights" than many countries with a non christian heritage but part of this (if we accept that political and economic turmoil can have regressive/inhibitive effects on progressive culture) has to be acknowledged within a frame of reference that remembers that for a long time those countries with christian heritage were actively and unapologetic-ally bullying, dominating and exploiting said non-christian nations.

And often those that weren't actively involved in the exploitation of non-christian countries were given a free pass from being subjected to the horrors colonialism as they were already considered to be "civilized societies worthy of respect and autonomy".


Culture does play a big role but in turn a lot of things influence what cultural ideas will thrive and die; and also what particular interpretations of religious doctrine will be considered as legitimate canon.

I suppose my point with Afghanistan in the 1960's is not that Afghanistan used to be lovely then Russia came and then America but rather that there does seem to be some kind of demand with the Afghani population for liberal suffrage. It has been suppressed and faced opposition yes, but that's not entirely un common. Think about the aggression that faced black school children during integration in America for instance and what could of happened if those forces won out.