Admitting to gaps in your knowledge

I'm posting this in the General forum because there isn't an "instructors corner."

A bit of background info: I teach a blend of full-contact karate, ITF TKD, and kickboxing. My focus is on developing strong, powerful high kicks, particularly being able to do them at any time without a warm-up. My curriculum includes a selection of very rudimentary techniques and strategies aimed at surviving basic ground attacks and getting back to standing as quickly as possible.

A student commented that they wanted more ground-based training. I explained this was beyond my level of competency and referred him to a local Gracie jiu-jitsu academy where he could get more grappling experience. I train there myself too, occasionally. My student now happily trains with me and the Gracie guys to satisfy his varying training needs.

I mentioned this to a fellow karate instructor who criticised me for admitting to gaps in my knowledge and referring my student to another, more competent instructor. He holds the belief that I was essentially admitting to being a flawed teacher and my student would have lost confidence in me. I believe the opposite, based on the verbal feedback I've received from the student in question, and the fact that he is now training more with me than before I referred him to the Gracie guys.

What are your thoughts on this? Have you ever admitted / would you ever admit to gaps in your knowledge when a student asks you to train him/her on techniques you're unfamiliar with? Have you ever been in the student's situation, i.e., had an instructor who made such admissions; and if so, what action did you take?

Thanks in advance.

 

I think the Karate instructor's position is ridiculous, to be honest. He is basically advising you to do a disservice to your student. A more harsh appraisal might be that he is advising you to con your student.

I've never had a direct conversation about this, but a couple of people have come to a taster session and found it "too technical". I am very upfront about telling new students that if they want fitness training then they should go to a gym, because that is not what I teach. One guy that springs to mind much preferred a local Krav class, because it was basically a gruelling "warm-up" of circuit training followed by wailing on pads. When I bumped into him again I told him I was happy he'd found something that suited him. I don't get why an instructor would feel upset about students preferring another art or instructor, unless they are insecure about what they are teaching.

 

Everyone has gaps in their knowledge. Everyone.
Only the honest ones will openly admit that though.
In fact the people that know the most are often also those that are painfully aware of what they don't know and what their failings are.
It's generally the people that know a little that think they know it all IMHO.

I've never got the enforced "loyalty" in martial arts.
If what you are teaching is open and honest then people that like it will be loyal by default and no amount of force can create that.

 

The issue for me isn't so much teachers not admitting they have a gap, but it's as smitfire said those that think they know something but don't, for instance those that say they know grappling but teach things like hammerlock takedowns, or bad bent over head outside singles, or bent over double legs with no penetration.

Those are the dangerous ones because they convince themselves and their students they don't have a gap and lead their students into learning bad habits.

I suppose the question is what constitutes enough knowledge to be able to teach for instance I'm quite happy teaching grappling I've competed and trained for over a decade,

striking wise if someone wanted to learn I'd be happy to teach I've trained in striking even longer both western and eastern arts, but never competed full contact so am I qualified to actually teach someone, especially if they wanted to compete?

 

I think there is truth to the old adage "the more you know, the more you know you don't know". Bad teachers abound in all skill sets, not just martial arts, and caveat emptor applies to all prospective students.

But VZ wasn't talking about that. The karate instructor in question said that you shouldn't admit a lack of knowledge even when you are aware of your lack of knowledge. That is taking self-aggrandising to psychopathic levels, IMHO. It's the kind of advice I'd expect from Master Ken.

 

Gaps in knowledge do not exist in this dojo do they!?! NO SENSEI!!

 

Nothing ruins trust faster than dishonesty, and most people can tell when you're lying about your qualifications. I think you're doing a real service for your students.

 

There are a great many charlatans in the martial arts world. Some of them are so good they manage to fool themselves! Luckily for them, there are a great many martial arts students that are much happier flailing around believing they are deadly. It works out in the end. Those that really want to push themselves and learn a legitimate martial art will find a legitimate instructor and do so. Those that are happier doing pretend martial arts will find those who are happy to teach that to them. Win-win all around.

 

I wonder if this is part of why they don't want to admit their flaws to the students: they are admitting their flaws to themselves.

for the brief few years I was the teacher, I had a few similar questions, I never felt the need to bluff it, you are failing everyone.
what I found adding to my attitude is that I had experienced that experience "spin" from other teachers, in the same club and others I trained at.
coming from 8 years on Judo to a kungfu club with one teacher showing the worst hip throws and body drops, and claiming to have many years experience, I doubted everything that was said by them after.

I wouldn't want anyone to doubt what I am legitimately teaching.

I think part of it is the enforced loyalty, which in some cases is passively enforced through attitude.

it builds a better relationship with your students to see that you address skill gaps by going to someone more experienced.

 

I agree with you that his standpoint is ridiculousness. He didn't seem to be aware of how he was coming across, and in my previous interactions he was always a genuine guy. But ignorance is no excuse.

I have had similar experiences with students wanting something less technical. Education on correct biomechanics and exercise physiology is embedded in my curriculum, but the subject matter can seem overwhelming to people who aren't strong in the sciences. A number dropped out and went to the local WJJF school, which is their choice. I translate what I teach into layspeak as much as possible, but there comes a point for people who still can't grasp the concepts when they are politely advised they would get a better experience elsewhere.

I find Krav instructors are often guilty of refusing to admit where gaps exist in their knowledge, instead claiming to teach everything better than everyone else. Unfortunately, members of the public buy into the hype.

 

I found that the less I try to cater for everyone and instead 'stay in my lane' by focusing on what I teach really well, student satisfaction increases. I know other instructors who said similar, but sadly there are still schools which insist on obedience and fealty.

 

Thanks Simon.

You came to mind quite recently actually. A prospective student was asking about RBSD training. I told him I could teach the application of my curriculum in "real fights" but self-defence was about much more than that, and indeed included aspects that I wasn't adept enough to teach. I gave him the Havoc website to get an idea of what to look for (he ended up training with Mel Corrigan in Wigan).

 

The possibility of teaching students to be bad grapplers - and potentially get seriously hurt, even just in class - is a burden I'm not willing to carry. I believe we should teach only that which we can do well ourselves.

As far as knowing when one is qualified to teach (apart from the obvious of being certified by an renowned instructor), a question I always ask myself is, "How well does what I'm teaching hold up to what is being taught by other instructors of similar styles in my geographical area?" For example, Q: How would my guard passes hold up against the local BJJ black belt instructors? A: I would get murdered. So I don't teach guard passes.

 

I'm of two minds about that. I started training at a gym where people were free to talk, the instructor encouraged everyone to try things out, test different ideas and strategies, and we'd have really productive training sessions where you'd get feedback from all your training partners. I'm now training at a gym (hey look at me I got back into it woooo!) where they are very, VERY discouraging of any talking during rolling or asking questions of other beginners. I've been yelled at before. So now when someone asks me a question I just say "that's above my pay grade, let's ask coach." Both gyms have produced a stable of competent grapplers, both have comparable levels of injury. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "Well, here's what I know, but you'd be better off getting advice from X, Y, or Z." I think that becomes a bit different when you're a professional getting paid to do it thouhg.

 

I wouldn't expect someone from a BJJ school to claim that they can teach head-kicks better than a TKD school could, but likewise, I would not expect a TKD or karate school to teach grappling anywhere near to the level of a BJJ school or wrestling club. Every art has certain drawbacks, and if you don't admit that, you lose credibility.

As an example of how respecting other arts should go...here's Chuck Norris, head of a Tang Soo Do organization with every financial incentive to talk up his own art, talking about his first experience with BJJ.

 

I think I agree with the above.

My Sensei is not very good at kicking; he ca explain what to do, he can give corrections - but he also says: He doesn't like it much and he can't do it very well.

Another simple example: I like to know the names of certain things, when there are some.
So when I asked for certain names of throws, for example, and the teachers wouldn't know them, they would say so: "I don't know the name right now, but tell you what: I see, that I can find it out for the next time."
One teacher found out one of the names *weeks* later, but still gave me the name, when he finally found it.

When preparing for his grading, my Sensei would even take an advice I gave him (well, I *asked* him, if yx wouldn't be an alternative, so that all works together) and he not only accepted that, he even said, that this was the reason, why I was allowed to uke.
Oh, yeah, his grading was for 5th Dan, I was 5th Kyu; so not quite an expert yet (Hopefully I will become something somehow similar to an expert at some point )
Probably the first time ever I felt a little proud

My former HKD teacher never blamed me for leaving his club.
I explained why I would leave, that I liked his training but would leave anyway.
All now and then I go over there, to talk to him a little.
The last time he pretty much told me, that he was *so* glad, that I found a place where I think I belong (He was more certain of that than I am lol), that I kept training, and that he is sure, that I will keep training for years - and that *this* is the most important thing!
I felt really grateful and he made it that much easier for me, because I still felt a little bad, for leaving.


For myself: I only teach kids and am still a student myself, so yes: When there is something I don't know, that is what I will admit to.
I will also tell them, that I will find a way to, for example, explain something better/ in a new way, they might understand; or I will tell them: You know what, I don't know right now, let me think about it*!

*just today (well yesterday): We have a little performance on Saturday.
One kid begged me, to let him show Juji-Jime.
So I told him: You know what: You train the other things now, and I go on and find a nice little technique, where you can use that choke in the end.
So, I have until Thursday, to find a nice and easy little technique, hopefully with elements we didn't use so far, to show him.
(60 minute classes really are short, even with kids. I simply didn't had the time, to do it during the session, because there were kids everywhere, actually training, but still with questions.).



TLTR: I have the highest respect, if my teacher tell me, that they don't know something.
Be it right now or in general.
My Karate and Kickboxing coach, who also does (J)JJ, openly says that x and y (they are real people, I just don't want to throw there names in here), would knot him together, when being on the ground and that they are really, really, really good at what they are doing - and he is a little bit on the side of "Who can still show me something?" (I know, it always makes me roll my eyes too).

I think it's way worse, to pretend to be able to do or to know something, without having a clue, or when it's know that it's full of holes.