Adapting modern training methods for kung fu

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by crumpet, Mar 3, 2011.

  1. crumpet

    crumpet Valued Member

    Who here in their classes uses modern training methods to evolve their kung fu training? I don't mean cross training in other arts or doing mma, but actually taking a good hard look at your style of kung fu, and training it to be just as effective against other styles, whilst keeping it real to the art's core principles and concepts?

    I find too many students are caught in the idea of 'traditional' martial arts, and 'traditional' training as supposedly better than people 'modernising' their training, because apparently it's 'traditional' and more 'authentic'. But let's get real.. Cut the mysticism and romanticism of what so called traditional training should be like, and lets look at how to revolutionise kf training.

    For eg. I actually do cross train in muay thai, but am starting up teaching kung fu classes again. Back in the day 200 yrs ago, kung fu was designed to fight mostly against other kung fu styles. Somehow it seems nearly every kung fu style had a run in with a Russian boxer who insulted the Chinese people, the Chinese guy beat the boxer, and that validates how effective CMA is. :rolleyes: These days we're exposed to dozens, if not hundreds of different styles the old guys never came across, and whilst many of kf techniques are still very applicable, some are not, and therefore IMO, there is a need to be logical and work the techniques that do still work, in a manner that is realistic (keep the ones that don't work if you're teaching an art as a whole).

    I've started to create some combos for padwork, added fitness, cardio and strength training into the curriculum, but still figuring out what other things could be done to make the training more dynamic and relevant. Obviously there are application drills, sparring, etc. but what else do people do to walk the talk of training in a supposedly combat/fighting kung fu style, whether u still use traditional methods or gotten ideas from how other clubs train?
     
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    where i train northern shaolin, technique training is overwhelmingly geared towards partner work (forms aside, of course), with the only line work done is almost always used as part of a warm-up, and on some days we do a fair amount of padwork. aside from that, lots of classical physical exercises, with more "modern" stuff here and there depending on who's teaching at the moment,and some breaks where whoever wants to can go and hit the bag.
     
  3. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    Tailor your training for your students to compete in San Shou/San da events. This will eventually filter out anything that cannot be applied in a resistive enviroment.
     
  4. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Replace forms training and kicking/punching the air with partner training and kicking/punching the pads.

    That's a good place to start.
     
  5. butcher wing

    butcher wing Oi, Fatso!

    Well in Chow Gar SPM we have two man drills for conditioning and sensitivity. We also have a two man fighting form that has lots of contact involved. We also do padwork and lots of combo's from the forms on focus pads and also do sparring.
     
  6. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I understand where you're coming from and in the interest of the topic of this thread...would it not be then prudent to then quit the KF and go do MT?

    (just to keep the thread going)
     
  7. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

    Except that Sanshou/Sanda is still CMA and you would lose the Chinese flavour, not to mention the take downs.

    MT has its own, distinct Thai flavour and culture that differ from Sanda/Sanshou.
     
  8. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

    Except that Sanshou/Sanda is still CMA and you would lose the Chinese flavour, not to mention the take downs.

    MT has its own, distinct Thai flavour and culture that differ from Sanda/Sanshou.

    Sanda/Sanshou, however, does seem to be one CMA that evolves. More traditional styles often do seem to eschew evolution. Whilst I can understand not wanting to lose important traditions, I'm still disappointed to hear closed minded instructors.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
  9. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I don't think so. Kung fu with bagwork and hard sparring still feels and looks like kung fu; it has a very different flavor than Muay Thai.

    I know I already posted this video in another thread recently, but I'm kind of in love with it at the moment.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5btvKygjCY"]YouTube - Raquel Romaine (Choy Li Fut) vs Allison Manno (Tai Chi)[/ame]

    For an amateur fighter taking part in a local, come-one-come-all event like MUSU, the gal in black is extremely controlled and effective, yet what she's doing looks NOTHING like Muay Thai to me. I think it's immediately and obviously CLF, just done with gloves in a full-contact format. I don't want to put words in the original poster's mouth, but I think that's the sort of final product the OP is looking for.
     
  10. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Hahaha not to sound like an ass but it's funny seeing charp choys hitting Taichi girl in the face at will.

    I think she was using yum charp (twisting down) to hit her opponent in the face though, when ping charp (flat) would be faster/more efficient for that target.
     
  11. crumpet

    crumpet Valued Member

    Very nice clip! Girl in black looked more CLF than the other CLF sanda clips I've seen. IMO I don't see sanda having a cma flavour. It just looks like kickboxing with throws. If they wore fingercut gloves and allowed strikes with the ridge of the palm (closed fist), that would allow for more variety of hammer strikes. I'd really love to find a good kung fu tournament that allows for people to showcase their art in sparring. Can't find any decent ones in Aus though.

    Everyone says they do partner drills and padwork, but how intense is it? Does anyone hold interclub competitions where you get to spar other stylists? What about strength and conditioning... Does anyone incorporate weights/kettlebells, etc? How fit and strong are the students? It's amazing to see how many overweight or unfit people there are who train. Seeing that kf is a physical activity, you'd think anyone who trains it would be fit right? The amount of unfit or overweight people I've seen amazes me. You wouldn't take a fat overweight personal trainer seriously to get you strong and fit, and if that same person told me they were a martial arts instructor, I wouldn't feel very confident training with them (old sifus with chi bellies aside. Most of the ones I've met were ripped back in their prime! 40yr old chi belly sifus don't apply, hehe).

    Does anyone use traditional contraptions in their training, besides wooden dummies? I love that hop gar video with the guy hitting the wooden telephone poles. Ball bearing sandbags or mung bean buckets? LOL.
     
  12. crumpet

    crumpet Valued Member

    Anyone train takedown defences against grappling styles?
     
  13. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I've seen some sanda that looks like kickboxing with throws; I've seen some that looks like full-contact kung fu.

    Woah woah woah...are kettlebells "modern" now? Because I thought they were old-school, going-back-to-tradition physical conditioning. And if you're going to hold up kettlebells as "modern," let's talk about stone lock training for a sec...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMlVUcNQIhE"]YouTube - The Stone Lock[/ame]

    Running is hard work, but not all runners I see look like Olympic marathon runners. Some are middle-aged desk-job workers, or mothers working on losing the pregnancy weight, or whatever. The same is true of any athletic activity once you get outside of the high-school-and-college context. It's not all or nothing, and we should be encouraging people who are out of shape to keep up the workout, not laugh them out of the kwoon because they don't have a six-pack after six months.

    So instead of inquiring as to whether everyone in the kwoon is really fit (which I don't think is fair when a place is taking all comers), ask whether people in the kwoon are noticeably more fit now than when they started training. I think that's a fair question to ask.

    Some of the best fencing coaches I've had are in no physical shape to compete themselves. The same is true of boxing coaches, who rarely are in the same physical shape of the competitive boxers they're training. Why would you then reject a kung fu club out of hand because the instructor has a bit of a belly? Does that mean he/she doesn't know good theory or can't communicate good theory or can't design an effective workout routine for the students?

    Edit: Evander Holyfield's coach looks nothing like Evander Holyfield:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD6jWjLqruc"]YouTube - Evander Holyfield training with Tommy Brooks[/ame]

    Nick Diaz's boxing coach looks nothing like Nick Diaz:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9ZJu_IJfLU"]YouTube - Diaz Boxing Coach Talks Win[/ame]

    Etc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  14. crumpet

    crumpet Valued Member

    All fair points Mitlov. I know kettlebells aren't modern, but used it as an e.g with weights since they're the 2 popular weight equipment used these days.

    As for coaches not looking like their fighters, I agree they have experience and knowledge to offer. However younger people don't really have as much of an excuse to not get into it though, medical reasons aside. For eg. there were people in a club I trained in that were in their prime but fat and overweight, and couldn't run down the street to save their lives, let alone square off ready to fight. They were meant to be seniors as well. It was due to sheer laziness and not putting in the hard yards, and those are the types of people you really wouldn't want in your kf class, let alone teaching you things, considering kung fu is meant to be 'hard work' right?

    Those stone locks look cool! Well it doesn't matter what the equipment looks like, so long as it achieves the desired goals. I'd love to see more kf classes have weight and strength training like that. I guess what's what I mean by adopting 'modern' training methods. It's not a new concept, as you proved, lots of old school clubs do the same thing mma clubs do nowadays, just with different equipment. How many kf schools still retain the fitness and strength training that actually did exist back in the days when people used stone locks, massive jugs, kettlebells, etc? You can still use those equipment to make it look traditional, and keep the exact goals from using those exact equipment, or use different resources we have these days to achieve the same results.
     
  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I wish we had more time and equipment to train in my school. But we dont. So we make do with 3hrs in a hall, once a week.

    We do mix things up as we got a Judoka, a couple of MMA (me!) and a JJJ in our class so we feed off each other.

    We do keep our forms training though. As I still feel that its valid to the style and this is what it makes each KF style unique. In a way, its our belt system. I can teach just the strikes/grabs/grapples etc just as effective but I wont be happy calling it PM.
     
  16. crumpet

    crumpet Valued Member

    So your style has 20 belt levels or so? ;) I think I told you about the belt level system my partner and I have created, but moreso as a teaching and organisational aid than about belts and rankings itself. The forms are grouped together in particular levels, and we've written out the skills to be developed + strength, fitness and conditioning requirements for each level as well. It leaves room for instructors to teach however they want so long as they can develop what is required in students at each stage.
     
  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Yeh, and what about it?

    Unless it includes 'Camoflage" coloured belt...not interested :D
     
  18. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    I'm about to take an examination soon.

    Our particular school divides the curriculum into seven "levels."

    Upon completion of each test you get a certificate.

    The first two/three levels are mostly individual techniques, the Basic Form, and then the Combat Form. Then some "application sparring."

    The fourth level and above I believe you start to test with full-on sparring, and the rest is just more techniques and concepts, e.g. opening attacks, follow-up attacks, combinations, counter attacks, strategies, footwork, etc.

    It is essentially a way to organize everything within our system and teach/present in an effectively and concise matter.

    Because my Sifu has only been teaching for a relatively short while (4-5 years) he has been constantly revising the curriculum as well.

    Being in a higher "level" doesn't necessitate to being a better fighter, but it SHOULD mean you have a higher or clearer understanding of the SYSTEM and its intricacies.
     
  19. melb

    melb Banned Banned

    What exactly do you mean by modern day traing methods? Punching a bag? Lifting weights? Gravitys been around for a while...and how does this make sense.." I don't mean cross training in other arts "..."For eg. I actually do cross train in muay thai"..is this just another thread where we sing the praises of CLF?
     
  20. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Someone's affected much? LOL

    crumpet does Lung Ying if I read his signature correctly, NOT CLF!!!!!
     

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