A thread of random questions

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by weeginger, Jun 21, 2011.

  1. weeginger

    weeginger Valued Member

    I keep having odd questions that I want to ask, but I don't know which thread to put them in. I'll use this for now.

    First one: When I did Kempo for about a year we did blocking drills where one person would throw punches to different parts of the body of the other who would in turn have to block them. The blocks themselves were no different to the ones we do in Kuk Sool, but in Kuk Sool I have the impression that there is much less emphasis on building up bone strength. To practice blocking should we do the hard forearm blocks, the soft-hand redirecting blocks or a mix of both?

    Second: When kicking, should the heel always be on the ground? I often end up raising my heel when doing Bahl Deung Cha Ki, Bahl Koom Chi Doh Li Ki and Doh Rah Cha Ki (I had to check the wiki for those :p), because I'm not sure if I'm getting the full power of the kicks the way I'm doing them.

    Third: This one is somewhat related to the second question. Why do we practice kicking high? I have never been particularly flexible and I'm never sure why I should be able to kick above the waist, especially since I'm only 5'5" which makes most people noticeably harder to kick above the waist for me.
     
  2. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    One: SOme schools practice this, some don't. In my school, we do forearm striking drills where we more or less just hit our forearms against each others for endurance training. However, you should practice softer since your not meeting force on force anyway.

    Second: It should for balance, in my opinon.

    Third: Never underestimate a nut shot! You don't have to kick high, but it is good for flexibility training. You stretch out your muscles, giving you more muscles to build, thus giving you greater kicking power (thats how it was explained to me anyway...).
     
  3. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    1) I learnt a forearm conditioning drill from master M. I. Sims, which also incorporates an intricate stepping pattern, but since he studied hsing-i chuan prior to KSW, I'm not sure if this drill is based on principles of kuk-sool or kung fu. :dunno: Lots of banging forearms in this drill, however. Although folks can pad the hell out of themselves nowadays, used to be that conditioning the bones of the shins and forearms was a requisite for sparring practice. :rolleyes: Of course, softer is better (i.e. less painful), but the hard blocks serve a purpose as well, so using a mixture of both is the only real answer.

    2) Planting your heel on the ground whilst doing a spin kick (dor-a chagi; 돌아차기) is a sure way to mess up your ankle, as you need to rotate freely on the ball of your foot in order to generate power with this particular kick. With round kicks (bal-deung chagi; 발등차기), you also pivot on the ball of your foot but since you should've already completed the rotation of your hips by the time you land your foot on the target, allowing your heel to touch the ground helps to support you whilst transferring the power of the kick into the target (which becomes a balance issue when kicking the air). Hook kicks (bal kkum-chi chagi; 발꿈치차기) are essentially the reverse of round kicks, meaning that you can pivot before making contact with the target, and then use your hips to drive your weight into the kicking leg as you pull it back towards your support leg (IMO this kick is very weak if pitched high, but it doesn't take much to ring someone's belltower - your shortish stature, wee-gee, may preclude attempting this maneuver anyway - and FYI, I think at 5'5" you're still taller than KukSaNim, LOL).

    3) According to an ancient korean legend, MAists were classified as average (able to kick with power to the legs), above average (able to kick with power to the body/torso), and superior (able to kick with power to the head & shoulders) by how high they could kick. Many of the specialty kicks in kuk-sool require extreme flexibility in the legs and at the same time, great strength in them as well (also coordination, as in jumping, spinning, or the combination of both). Although concentrating mostly on low kicks and sweeps, similar concepts about superior kicking skill being equated to the ability to kick increasingly higher, can be seen in tae kkyeon (태껸), a popular sport in modern-day Korea which is based on ancient principles of H2H combat as taught in indigenous KMA.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  4. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    As 'action' will nearly always beat 'reaction', unless you are prepared to train 'blocking' for countless thousands of hours to the point that they occur without conscious thought (what I sometimes call 'instinctive, blink reaction'), trying to block, by swinging your arms inwards or outwards, is pretty much a waste of time.

    I prefer to teach students to shield, or cover up, and then fight back from that position – like a regular Boxer does. In fact, if you think that someone is about to strike you, you should either hit them first – hard and fast – or else get the hell away as quick as you can. Standing and waiting for someone to punch or kick you so that you can then respond by 'blocking' in the sense of moving your arm inwards or outwards, etc., is a sure way to get hit.

    Undoubtedly my comments will be at odds with some others on here but, if you want to check out you ability to 'block' (in the traditional sense), then get in the ring with a half-decent Boxer, Muay Thai fighter or Savateur, and see how you get on.
     
  5. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    As for kicking, Unk has pretty much answered those questions. I agree with him that the the weight should rarely, if ever, be in the heel when kicking. And it does indeed raise off the floor a lot of the time as well.

    Why do we practice high kicks? 1) For the sake of the art, perhaps. It demonstrates a higher level of skill that, by necessity, can usually only have been attained by having trained for quite a long time, and 2) You can score more points in some types of competition by kicking to the head, than the body or legs.
     
  6. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Actually, no on my part, as I can agree with most of what you stated in post #4. :cool:


    But I would like to elaborate on the concept of blocking, as the "black & white" aspects you touched on mainly account for fisticuffs, and MA in the truest sense goes beyond that. Using your arms or legs to shield or cover more vital parts (such as the head or torso) is indeed a viable method of "blocking." However, depending on the situation, parrying an offensive action can also be an effective means of "blocking."

    To quote an old movie (specifically, Karate Kid part II), "best kind of block: don't be there." But evasion isn't always a feasible recourse, as it may place you in an undesirable position (such as not in reach for a counterstrike of your own). If you threw a rock at me (too hard and fast for me to try and catch it), avoidance would be my first choice, followed by covering my vital body parts with body parts I consider more expendable. Batting it away from me, especially if not timed properly, would be a poor choice as a protective measure. OTOH, if you were attacking instead by poking me with a stick, pushing it off-track may prove more useful than covering or dodging, especially if its end happens to be particularly pointy (likewise if armed only with a sword and no shield, I would choose to deflect your sword-thrust with my sword or interpose my sword if you were cutting, i.e. whacking at me with the edge of your sword).

    Someone's fist can be viewed as either of these two scenarios, i.e. as a rock or ball which is flying at you like a projectile, or as a stick (by including the arm attached to it) that's being poked at you. Which method you choose to protect yourself is largely dependent on your perspective and how you wish to continue with the encounter. If fleeing is tops on your list, brushing aside an offending appendage, be it a kick or a punch, may prove to incur less damage than using your own arms and legs as a shield. Furthermore, some forearm blocks can be used to transition into a grab where if no hesitation is present (which could lead to your opponent putting a joint lock on you), such a maneuver might allow you to execute a throw or some other type of takedown.

    I detect a hint of Bruce Lee philosophy in your advice concerning one's concentration on offense rather than defense. In theory, it's a sound concept, but his 'interception' of an attack by counterattacking is usually presented with the example of a round punch being cut short by a straight punch. If your adversary is punching straight, it's way too slow to use an arced movement to intercept it. But according to um/yang precepts, using an arced movement is the correct thing to do against a straight-line attack, but you now need to make this arced movement knock the incoming fist off course (i.e. use a block). Simultaneously moving your body and counterstriking with your other hand (or with one of your feet), sufficiently follows Lee's philosophy (at least as I understand it). Dodging a straight punch whilst tripping them (causing them to fall) is yet another way to adhere to Lee's fighting concepts (and to embrace the advice from the Karate Kid movie I mentioned above - LOL).

    Protecting your head from a punch by using your arms as a cover and then pouncing on your opponent afterwards sounds strategic enough, but covering in order to take the blow and then re-engage, completely ignores the idea of moving forward from where you're at. Since your adversary has already closed the natural "safe distance" fighters adopt by instigating a blow, if unable to react fast enough to their initiative so as to make a preemptive strike of your own, blocking their punch with the idea of possibly converting it into a grab will save you the trouble of maneuvering past the 'safe distance' they will undoubtedly reestablish once they see their attack fail due to your "covering up" defense. I hardly see blocking taken in this light as a "waste of time" but if you do, Pugil, then I won't belabor the point any further. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011
  7. weeginger

    weeginger Valued Member

    Many thanks for the responses, though I admittedly still don't know how to apply the advice to training other than by sparring more and more.

    No-one has mentioned You-Won-Hwa. Is it hard to describe the application of Y-W-H to sparring and street combat?
     
  8. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    All the confrontation examples from my previous post (#6) have elements of YWH (유원화). Perhaps it's you, wee-gee, that isn't seeing it simply because I didn't highlight it specifically, but it's in there, trust me. :cool:
     
  9. weeginger

    weeginger Valued Member

    Thanks. I gave it another read and I think I picked up on it this time. The principles aren't quite embedded in my skull yet.
     
  10. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    In free sparring, I teach my students to catch and parry (deflect), as well as cover up, and to move (i.e. employ good footwork), to take them in and out of range.

    In the street, however, you either need to move as fast and as far away as possible, or else move right in (i.e. close distance) as fast as you can, whilst at the same time employing a strong offence. The idea of standing still and trying to 'block' strikes – in the traditional ship-ja-makki (four-directional cross-blocking) manner is crazy. If anyone is still having a problem with this, lay on the floor and have a couple of people launch kicks at your body and head. Try going for, let's say, 20 seconds using your arms to block the strikes as they come in!

    Standing up, or laying down, is not really that different when it comes to tucking your body and head in behind the shield of your two arms at times.

    And if you have to fight, use the old Boxing philosophy and strategy: "Be fast, and be first!
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011
  11. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Unk and I are simply skating around this issue from different angles. I know what he means, and I'm fairly sure he knows what I mean. But I rarely bother posting in as much depth and detail as he tends to do as I now realise that what you write on here will be read by 12 people (give-or-take), of which half of them won't understand what you're on about anyway, and what you wrote will be forgotten in 12 hours time – at best – anyway!
     
  12. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Of course I know what you mean. :cool:

    But you did bother to write 3 paragraphs in post #4, and made a special point to get this message across: "trying to block, by swinging your arms inwards or outwards, is pretty much a waste of time."

    Had you taken the time to acknowledge that you do teach your students to "catch and parry (deflect), as well as cover up" (i.e. the first sentence in post #10), which is essentially the same thing as a forearm block, then there's a good chance I wouldn't have bothered to go into elaborate detail in post #6 replying to this omission of facts from your post #4. After all, I'd hate for the dozen or so captivated audience we have to think you actually abhor blocking/parrying. :D


    And as long as I'm adding yet another post, there's a comment I meant to insert about blocking in post #6 but forgot. Not all the time, as it does take practice to get good with the skill, but sometimes a hard forearm block can be used as a strike, aiming for sensitive areas on your opponent's arm, such as where a nerve can be pinched against a bone (the radial nerve along the inner forearm is a good example). In such a maneuver, you hit with your ulna in a pseudo-sudo, since a true sudo/knifehand (수도 手刀 shǒu dāo) uses the 5th metacarpal as the striking implement.
     
  13. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Relevant article: http://www.karate-shotokan-kata.com/Karate-styles.html

    "IF YOU HAVE DOUBTS, TEST YOUR TECHNIQUE AGAINST A MOVING RESISTING OPPONENT

    "I think there isn't one Karate student in world who hasn't said to himself or herself at one time or another, "This block will never work in a real fight, so why am I learning it?" But he or she is within the confine of the dojo, and for those Karate styles or dojos who practice "tradition" over everything else, it's unthinkable and disrespectful to question your Sensei. When your Sensei said, you listened, trained and that's it. The most common reply would be it's not working because you did not trained hard enough or long enough. Nobody ever thought it's because that particular Karate block is not practical in a real fight. So our common sense, body biomechanics and anatomical capability are thrown out of the window just because of tradition or ego. I suggest everytime you have doubts on a particular Karate technique, voice it out or better, pressure-test the technique against a moving resisting opponent."
     
  14. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    not sure if there is a reason for cross blocking to be even taught. most techniques that involve REDIRECTION of force from a punch in the syllabus begin as x-blocks, and fewer rely on bent wrist traps. just recently a group of us learned some palm techs, but the initial redirection of the punch was with a single hand deflection.... not a cross block.

    as for the go to answer for mindful practise, i always use the time to work on my long stance switching, and sweeping movements. good for the lungs and body. after i get into it (after about 4), i think to myself something master yang told one of us a loooooong time ago, "no hyeol on outside of forearm" and imagine all the possible traps i can commenxe from each sweeping movement of my ulna area.
     
  15. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Sip Ja Mak Gi [십자막기, 十字壅技; shí zì yōng jì], the drill used in kuk-sool to practice the 4 directions one can use a forearm block (i.e. in, out, down & up), is not meant to be used in an actual physical confrontation. Instead it's merely a training drill which involves the arms and can be done simultaneously while working on stepping patterns which are meant to help with one's balance in transitioning from one posture to another. Circle blocks are more useful as a parrying movement IMO, but this drill (i.e ship-ja makki) helps to build & tone the shoulder muscles which are so important in making any sort of blocking motion with the arm/hand, including circle blocks, and why students are encouraged to do it at all. It's also a fairly easy drill to help teach students to perform in unison, and this ability (i.e moving in unison) is the first step to working successfully as a cohesive unit (an important military strategy still incorporated into TMA training, regardless of whether TMA stemmed from actual military training or not).
     
  16. weeginger

    weeginger Valued Member

    So a circle-block/parry drill might be more useful?
     
  17. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    No. Not as a drill, per se, as many would find it difficult to stay together. Use your circular blocking motions when practicing one-step counter-offensives (such as maek chigi/chagi) or when sparring. Ship-ja makki should work just fine to help build/tone your shoulder muscles (that and a trip to the weight-lifting gym, on a regular basis).

    Oh! A thought just occurred to me... Another reason for doing ship-ja makki would be to practice economical movement. Beginners often extend their block either too far or not far enough. Drilling the motion helps to teach the proper angle of the joints for maximum advantage, same as with stepping drills to help teach where to place your feet for maximum balance.
     
  18. weeginger

    weeginger Valued Member

    Next question:

    When practicing some staff spinning techniques, although I am placing my hands where I have been instructed, e.g. always grab above the previous hand in No. 4, I still find that one end of the staff starts growing for some reason. I can often keep up a decent pace if I shuffle my hands a little bit during the changeover, but that doesn't feel as secure as it could. Am I doing something wrong?
     
  19. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Probably not...

    But allow me to be a bit long-winded in answering your question. For the sake of simplicity, let's make sure we're on the same page. Staff spin #1 is clockwise (as you are viewing the staff) while held directly in front of your chest. To make a complete revolution, you will need to pass the staff a total of two times, once from the right hand to the left hand and of course, from the left hand back to the right. The spin could also be stated as the top of the staff (when in vertical position) is moving to your right. The reason for adding this second explanation is because the right hand will ALWAYS be on top if spinning to the right (even though your hands are rotating back & forth, they stay in the same relative position to one another). Likewise if doing a CCW (counterclockwise) spin (i.e. a spin to the left), the left hand will always be on top. Technically there is no 1b, but borrowing from similar constructs WRT the movement in other numbered techniques within the staff spinning routine, I like to designate a CW spin in front as 1a, and a CCW spin in front as 1b.

    When doing spin 1a, the pass from the RH to the LH is what I call an underhand pass, as the palms will be facing up. The pass from the LH to the RH would then be called an overhand pass, for obvious reasons. However, it's important to note that while the underhand pass is always done the same, there are 2 different methods for doing the overhand pass (basic vs. advanced). The basic overhand pass places the thumbs next to each other on the same side of the staff (same grip as if bowing with the weapon while held horizontally in front of you). The advanced overhand pass is similar to the underhand pass in that your pinky fingers are placed next to each other, but on opposite sides of the staff (the underhand pass is done with the thumbs placed next to each other, on opposite sides of the staff). By using the basic method, even children can learn to do staff spinning fairly quickly. The only drawback is that it only works for the staff since it's the same on both ends. To wield a one-ended weapon such as the spear, the advanced overhand pass must be done if you want to keep the weapon in the proper orientation (i.e. tip/head forward or upward when in a normal grip).

    The reason there is no spin numbered as 1b, is because you ned to learn to do a CCW spin in order to do #2 (the only difference is that in #2 the staff is held near your right hip). We know that #3 is the reverse of #2, i.e. spun CW while being held near the left hip. Spin #4 is the rapid alternation of 2 & 3, doing a single underhand pass near the hip before bringing the staff across to the other side, which is preformed similar to doing a front punch, but allowing the staff to continue its momentum.

    Keeping the staff from *inching* in your grip towards one end should be rather easy with #4, since the only pass being made is the underhand type. I'm going to explain it the same way I do to kids, since that way there's little chance of any misunderstanding.

    Everyone knows how to simulate a bird flapping its wings, by interlocking the thumbs and waving the rest of their fingers as if they were flapping wings. Now, turn this bird simulation hand posture upside down (IOW, do it with the palms up). Except that the staff will be in between the two thumbs, this hand position is identical to the instant when the staff makes the jump from one hand to the other (remember to always keep a firm grip on the staff whilst spinning it, either with thumb & fingers of one hand, or with opposing digits of both hands). Once a pass-off is made (i.e. left knuckles in right palm when passing on the right, or right knuckles in left palm if passing on the left), grab the staff tightly with the [bottom] hand and then do your "front punch" motion, allowing the momentum of the weapon to arc over to the opposite hip and the subsequent pass-off.

    Hopefully this explanation allows you to add speed & power to staff spin #4, as well as alleviate the problem with your grip gradually *inching* up the staff. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  20. weeginger

    weeginger Valued Member

    Remind me to try this in the morning; I would do so just now if it weren't enjoying some rather nice beer.
     

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