A self defense story

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Morik, Aug 29, 2016.

  1. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Does it matter if the result is not having to worry about being attacked?
     
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    you don't know if the gentleman was armed. you don't know if he meant you harm. none of us at this point really know anything. but yet, you pulled a knife out in the interest of "staying safe".

    if the situation went sideways, and it later comes out in police or legal conversations that you actually were the first one to pull a weapon out, regardless of whether you were attacked or not, do you think that helps or hurts your cause, legally?

    i would say it wouldn't help your cause. and i would argue that your girlfriend is less safe in the future, because you're in jail and not around to walk her home.

    i think it's an interesting discussion and i'm glad we're having it.
     
  3. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    no one, certainly not the op, has established that there actually was any danger.

    when you walk down the street at night in your town, do you pull a weapon out if someone is behind you?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2016
  4. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    You left out the context.
     
  5. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I think there are two branches here.

    1) Possible legal ramifications if things go sideways.
    I am not a lawyer. I am familiar (at a layman level) with the self defense laws.
    If the only instance in which I am willing to deliberately cause damage with that knife come about from direct attack by the other guy, I don't think its likely that I end up in jail.
    I could claim I was just showing her my new knife, and the guy came along and attacked me so I used it. I could say he was acting funny and it made me feel unsafe so I readied it, and then used it when he attacked. I don't believe that would land me in legal trouble, but would have to go review the law and chat with a lawyer to be really sure.


    2) What would you consider a more optimal response? Any thoughts on the various options I laid out in comment 11? (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074999898&postcount=11)
     
  6. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I live in the country now, so the most I have to do is make sure I get off the road when a car comes late at night because it's probably some drunk redneck barreling down the road. Beyond that I do clap or holler loudly if I hear something in the brush.

    When I lived in DC it was a different story. There was one time at the boxing gym a guy started yelling towards a friend and me while we sat in the parking lot talking. We didn't know him and he seemed like a shady character, so I went in my car and put my 6" fixed blade in my pocket and had it in my hand, concealed, the entire time he was talking to us. Another time at the boxing gym another guy had approached me and I went into my car and grabbed a hammer. I later learned he was mentally ill, so I'm pretty glad nothing happened.

    When I landscaped in bad areas I walked around with the same 6" fixed blade in my hand. You can't do that in DC, but being that I was landscaping I could have easily said it was a tool if I was asked. If I walked late at night in a shady area I was constantly aware of my surroundings, and there were times where I dipped around a corner to let a person or group of people pass me if they hadn't noticed me yet.

    I'm not somebody who likes to reveal what I have or can do in potentially volatile situations due to the possibility of provoking somebody or giving them a heads up on what they would be dealing with. However because of that, if I were attacked I have an extra step involved to brandish my weapon. In the OPs case, he wouldn't have as it was already out and ready for use, but he revealed what he had. You never know how a potentially volatile situation will play out, so you can't really say one approach is better than the other but what mattes is the result.

    I really don't think the OP reacted in a bad way if he was that suspicious of the guy. When reading your reaction to it I see OP unsheathing a sword, roaring battle cries at the potential aggressor while trying to summon the dark lord himself (I like hyperbole). When I read his post I just read a passive aggressive approach to deter a potential threat.

    I guess we're not all as trusting of other people : P
     
  7. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i'm curious to find out by quoting me where you got the impression that i said the op unsheathed a sword and roared battle cries in order to summon a dark lord.

    are you sure you guys aren't confusing my posts with this post?

    it's kind of funny, the 3" equals "big".
     
  8. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    not pulling a weapon out unless you have to.
     
  9. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    When I called it a "whopping 3 inches" I was being sarcastic. I should have used a smilie or something to convey sarcasm. Sorry. But a few posts up I cut-and-pasted exactly what the OP said about the event that would have set off my "spider-man senses" tingling. And that's what I meant, also, when I said, "You left out the context."

    You have thus far ignored those lines. By implication that means that your spider-senses would not have been tingling. And therein is the difference between you on the one side, and me and Morik and Ero on the other side.

    But it'd be nice if you would explicitly say, "Nope, my spider-senses would not have gone off," rather than leaving it unspoken and implied.
     
  10. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Could you add some more detail:

    1) Define 'have to'.
    The super literal interpretation would be to never pull a weapon, because technically you are not physically being forced to do so. Obviously (to me at least) you don't mean "unless some external force grabs hold of you and physically forces you to do so".

    If someone stabs me 3 times, do I now "have to" draw it? Technically not, but that seems like an appropriate situation.

    If you mean "have to in order to survive", how do you determine that? Often you don't have time to sit down for an hour or a week or whatever and map out a probability space of survival vs non-survival for whatever situation you are in... even if you could, do you draw the weapon when it increases your odds of survival, or only when it is the ONLY way you have calculated to survive? (And that is assuming you had time to do that analysis on the situation...)

    2) What algorithm/thought process/evidence/etc should be used to determine whether the "have to" condition has been met, and how can one use this algorithm/thought-process/whatever in the short time one may have to react to a potential threat?


    And 3) If you have read over comment 11, does one of the options besides pulling the knife appeal to you? Perhaps the "do nothing" one? Would you care to contrast the potential upsides and downsides of "do nothing" vs "pull weapon out and make sure the guy knows you did so"?
    That is, if you have counterpoints to the ones I brought up in that post, can you give them?

    I'll repeat a bit of it here (with some rephrasing & expansion):
    If he was meaning me harm, then:
    a) If he had a gun we are probably screwed anyway
    b) If he has some other weapon it may make him more likely to just attack first rather than demand money or whatever he may have wanted from us.
    c) On the other hand (without a gun) he may figure it is too risky/too much trouble and leave.
    d) If he attacks and I use the knife to defend myself, may have some legal trouble due to having pulled the weapon prior to any attack.

    If he was not meaning me harm, then:
    a) As far as I can tell, I didn't do anything illegal.
    b) Me pulling a weapon is unlikely to make someone who didn't mean me harm decide they do want to harm me after all.
    My conclusion is that there isn't really a downside if he wasn't meaning me harm.


    So looking at just the "he was meaning me harm" side, the main trade-off seems to be "this might scare him off" vs "this might make him attack faster/more lethaly" (If, e.g., he was just planning to rob us, still wants to go through with it, but just kills us instead since I had a weapon out.)
    If he had a gun there is still a chance he draws it and tells me to drop the knife instead of just killing me.

    I dunno, I'm still having trouble seeing the downside. I agree that in the case where he is armed and still wants to do harm I have revealed some of my resources.
    But I think that is outweighed by the chance to deter him due to my having a weapon.


    And of course I didn't do this analysis in the moment. In the moment I was thinking something along the lines of: "This guy is acting really odd and I am worried. Oh I bet if I let him know I have a knife on me he will leave us alone."
     
  11. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Note the "I like hyperbole" after that description. I was saying you seem to be making it out to be a lot worse than what it was. ; D
     
  12. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    again, i'm wondering where you got me "making it out to be a lot worse". is it because i'm questioning the possible legal implications of pulling a weapon out? or asking for more details?

    i also don't think that 'hyperbole' means what you think it means. because you misattributed words to me that the op clearly stated. and then i think misread what the op actually said, which is why i quoted both the op and yourself. but let's start again.

    ero said:
    i'm guessing "your" means yours truly.

    when you read the op, what did you think when you read this part?

    key points: loudly started telling, loudly discussed, big knife, how big the blade was.

    did you read the op?
     
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    well looks like you've got everything figured out. you don't need us. but i would only add that since you're in virginia, why aren't you just open carrying. seems more efficient to strap a .357 to your leg than loudly discussing and brandishing a blade. no?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2016
  14. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I think you're blowing the actions out of proportion and that we're not going to agree.

    I'm not going to defend my use of the word hyperbole. If you can't see how it fit and how I was exaggerating your view (mostly for humor) then well . . . :dunno:
     
  15. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i find it salient that you can't point to anything i've actually said. :dunno:
     
  16. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Perhaps I wasn't clear.

    This is my version (in my head) of what this conversation has been like:

    Me: <OP>

    Giovanni: You made a bad choice.

    Me: <Explains my reasoning & some analysis of my choice, asks Giovanni to show his reasoning/analysis>

    Giovanni: Oh so that is your explanation, guess you already figured things out why are you even discussing it? But no you are wrong.

    If you (Giovanni) think that version of events is unfair/unrepresentative, please let me know how you have perceived things.

    What I'd like the conversation to be:

    Me: <OP>

    Giovanni: You made a bad choice.

    Me: <Explains my reasoning & some analysis of my choice, asks Giovanni to show his reasoning/analysis>

    Giovanni: Ah but you are incorrect in your claim about X. Here is why: ...
    And you said Y, but here is why I think that is wrong too: ...


    If your only response to my analysis and breakdown of various options is a snarky "guess you have it all figured out then" followed by a "no" implying that you still disagree, then I don't see how this conversation will go anywhere. If you can provide some reasoning and analysis (perhaps refute those claims of mine with which you disagree?), that would be nice.
     
  17. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i find it really, really interesting that the combination of morik, aikimac and ero-sennin keep making things up that i've said.

    morik: where did i say "you're wrong"?

    i've already pointed out exactly the shenanigans ero and aiki pulled.

    yes, i disagree with you morik. and i've questioned the actions you took thinking about it from a legal/safety perspective but i'm also pretty sure we were having a discussion. oh wait...

     
  18. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    ah...i see morik. i fixed my previous post. the ending "no" was meant to be like "this is something i'm thinking about, no?" like a conversational tool. my bad. should have been a "?" instead of a "." i updated the edit comments to be clear.

    my bad. :)
     
  19. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Oh, it wasn't anything specific. It's just the general way you say things, generally like it's a black and white scenario vs. more open opinions. If you're waiting for me to nit pick things like an essay and write some huge post dissecting how I interpret every sentence you write . . . well, it's not going to happen. This topic is pretty limited in scope given it's a specific experience and I don't really feel like writing a post like that. You have your opinion, you read way too much into my apparent misuse of hyperbole, and well . . . . that's ok. ^__^.


    Hey Aiki and Morik, let's go back to our secret layer to plan further shenanigans on Giovanni, he's clearly on to us! We have to get better at this! :running:
     
  20. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yeah I mis-read your intended statement there Giovanni, thanks for clarifying.

    Regarding your question about open-carrying a .357--I do not find these two things equivalent:
    - Perceiving/Believing I am in danger, I pull out and ready-for-use a pocket knife I had on me for various utility usage.
    - Always openly carry a large firearm

    There are many additional considerations involved in carrying a firearm, compared to using a pocket knife that I happened to have on me to discourage someone. E.g., search youtube for "open carry harassment". Also, this was on a college campus. Pretty sure they don't permit open carry on campus.

    If I perceived myself to be in danger often, I would certainly consider (maybe openly, maybe concealed) carrying a large firearm. However, I am not often in dangerous situations (at least as far as I'm aware).


    I think I've addressed the legal concern--do you still disagree on that aspect? (See post #25: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1075000575&postcount=25)
    Did I miss something? Which part of my response do you still disagree with?

    Regarding safety, I posted my analysis earlier and you haven't responded to it.
    (Specifically, point #3 in Post 30, http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1075000582&postcount=30)
    I'll repeat it again for convenience:

    If he was meaning me harm, then:
    a) If he had a gun we are probably screwed anyway
    b) If he has some other weapon it may make him more likely to just attack first rather than demand money or whatever he may have wanted from us.
    c) On the other hand (without a gun) he may figure it is too risky/too much trouble and leave.
    d) If he attacks and I use the knife to defend myself, may have some legal trouble due to having pulled the weapon prior to any attack.

    If he was not meaning me harm, then:
    a) As far as I can tell, I didn't do anything illegal.
    b) Me pulling a weapon is unlikely to make someone who didn't mean me harm decide they do want to harm me after all.
    My conclusion is that there isn't really a downside if he wasn't meaning me harm.


    Do you disagree with my analysis on the "if he didn't mean me harm" branch, aside from the legal stuff?
    Which parts of the "if he did mean me harm" do you disagree with, if any?
    Is it just my choices in balancing the trade-off there you disagree with? The tradeoff of 'increased chance of scaring him off' vs 'increased chance he attacks without warning (vs verbally demanding money or something)'?

    Keep in mind he was about 20' away at the time; I would have noticed if he suddenly charged us.
     

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