A matter of respect.....or lack thereof

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by campsinger, Oct 5, 2016.

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  1. garth

    garth Valued Member

    SWC Sifu Ben posted

    Right so you put words in my mouth such as....

    and when I ask you where I actually said that you wrote the above...

    Which of course means that you can't find where I said that you don't need training to be competent in it. This is why I said go back and read my posts.

    My point is based on your original argument, quote...

    Is just simply incorrect. The vast majority of soldiers, police officers who deal with real situations almost on a daily basis have never taken part in a sports based martial art. Its as simple as that.

    You then continued...

    Where are you getting this statistic from? Are there any statistics that show that this statement is correct, or are you making a judgement here without anything to back it up.

    Again I don't know where your getting this from and i'm also not sure what you mean by combat as you keep flitting from the street to the battlefield, after all you actually posted

    And in reply to that, do you actually realise how many instructors in the Bujinkan and other Takamatsuden have a military background. My own instructor had a almost two decades in the French Foreign Legion and the British Army, and I could supply you with a list of instructors here in the UK, and abroad who have a vast military background (Some special forces) and they see the benefit of training in this art. I won't mention their names here as I don't want to drag them in to this conversation or talk about their credentials, but as he is out there teaching we have Jack Hoban (15th Dan) as one example and the guy who helped design the US Marine MCMAP programme and is a subject matter expert for that programme.

    Again where did I say that? Some of my students (The higher level ones) do resistant training all the while. One of my guys who holds a second dan and one of my black belts (Ex US Military) get together and do the techniques to the full and they actually try to resist each other. The second dan, as you mentioned HEMA also won the dagger championship for one of the competitions put together by one of the groups and he trains in HEMA.

    Maybe thats an example of a guy who spent years training in the Bujinkan (who does not usually enter competitions) winning a competition.

    No I don't. I'm not saying they wouldn't help but as I said there can be a difference between sportive and resistance, they are not necessarily mutually inclusive.

    Of course resistance training is important. In fact when we teach security we use a conflict escalation model that goes from passive (The guy lets you take control) to passive aggressive (Refusing to move and may strike out), to aggressive (Extremely violent) and then to firearms and other weapons, and we do that with resistance, however we do not do it as a sport.

    You do realise of course that one can do resistance training without it being a sport where two people are trying to out perform another and win?

    Just asking a question but how many arrests have you carried out, just so we can talk about our experiences and make this a valuable excercise.

    Again you are putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that resistance training is not important but you were talking about a sports based resistance approach. My point is that we need to seperate the sport element from the resistance training. I'm not saying that techniques from BJJ, MMA etc would not work, just that in a C and R environment one cannot use a sports based mind set. The techniques you use have to be able to fit the model, and fit in with reasonable force law.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  2. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Dunc Posted

    I've always found it strange that the measuring stick to find out if a martial art works is the ring through competition. Doesn't matter the life skills you have, or how you have used the art in reality it all boils down to a mat where one is forced to fight in the most unrealistic arenas in the world.

    Its almost like these people want to set a false environment in which the art itself is not geared for, and they know it.

    I've said before on this forum, from my point of view Ninjutsu is not really a competition fighting art in the way we say BJJ, MMA being used. To me this art is more about self defence, and whilst of course BJJ can be used as a self defence method its not how ninjutsu works.
     
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Garth, if you cant cope with fighting 1 person (which the majority of kata are based on) in the same (matted) environment you train in, what makes you think you can cope with more then one person in an unfamiliar environment?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  4. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Things change when you compete:
    - Certain techniques are removed
    - Mats are introduced
    - Both parties are tying to sub the other
    - etc

    So for me the trick is to find a way to get the benefits of resistance without changing the goals of training

    But I'm curious if we could ever earn respect without competing?
     
  5. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I think people (generally) respect practitioners of the arts. They just have an attitude of scepticism towards something they see as unproven. I think competition footage/evidence is unnecessary but some evidence of resistant work using the material usually demoed in an effective way would go a long way to assuaging doubts and criticisms from those who don't train within the kans (outsiders/nonbelievers/ heretics ;) ).
     
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    1) You train on mats anyway so no difference.
    2) Both parties are fighting anyway so no difference.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  7. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    I think if more practioners were willing to get out of their "bubble" like you have , lose the us and them mentality and just turn up and train honestly with other styles it would go a long way :)
     
  8. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Probably this is a good example of what I'm talking about

    We don't train on mats as a rule

    The ukemi (break falls) are different as a result

    When you roll you have to land differently to avoid impacting with bony areas, you have to change the angle and areas of your body that are in contact with the floor

    It's super easy to try - just roll on concrete and see if it hurts. If it hurts and/or you cant't do it "full force" then perhaps the technique needs to be adjusted

    Here's an example of the break falling from a hip throw - it's a bit different from say the judo approach I think

    https://vimeo.com/92140285
     
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Been there, done that, (also not training on mats generally means your throws wont be smooth, fast or hard as you'll hold back from the throw, and so your throw counters also wont have the correct timing) and unless your main tactics are to get thrown full force and then counter attack after being thrown, then that point is moot.

    ps

    Kudos for the video and explanation! thanks!
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  10. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Don't disagree on the trade offs on throwing

    But we agree that adding mats tends to change the technique for break falling?

    And being able to break fall on concrete is helpful for the buj's context
     
  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    If I was you, I'd stop watching documentaries and reading Antony Cummins books to get your history from. Nightingale floors were made to counteract ninjas, as are other aspects you can see when you visit a castle in Japan. You can't have a rational discussion when you claim that Myoryuji has any connection or took inspiration from ninja. I've been there and they will vigorously deny any such claims.

    Ninja houses were also built with protection in mind, but it didn't only happen with them. Samurai did too. In fact, during particular times in Japanese history, most people thought of ways not to get killed everyday. Not surprising when the country was at more or less constant war for a few centuries.

     
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Sorry, we're not brothers.

    Not sure what that means but few question the effectiveness of his budo. He is more than willing to put their fears to rest.:hammer:

    You reposted a video that has been discussed before(hence the search function). Others have been as well, a la UFC alternate Robert Bussey student guy(can't recall his name-wait Steve Jennum?).

    Your attitude won't win you any more chance of being shown videos by the way. Might want to think about that if you ever do make it to Japan on vacation and happen to visit any Japanese ninja master's dojo. I'd hate to see you made an example of due to your attitude.
     
  13. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    In terms of the viability of technique, yes. But that's informed by the common experience of things which work under pressure and their elements through a large sample of individuals actively trying to do and resist things being done to them.

    Will you ever earn the same level of respect as certain other arts without that? I don't think so.
     
  14. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Do you guys compete in an open format?
    Be great to see that and training clips from other posters here - perhaps I could get some ideas on how others have worked through these issues
     
  15. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Except Chadders - that I've seen :)
     
  16. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Right, because implying things in the context of a discussion is a thing which just doesn't exist :rolleyes:


    My point is based on your original argument, quote...

    Marksmanship, room clearance, arrest training where the person is non-compliant, training in kit against other units, running courses, etc. etc. etc.

    All sportive/resistant training

    Find me a big group of people from one or multiple "too deadly to spar" groups who have routinely beaten or equaled a large pool of the folks who train in the sportive/resistant method. You won't.

    If you'll go back and actually read my post you'll note that was in response to PR mentioning combat.

    That actually has nothing to do with our conversation nor what I was talking about with regards to combat. Having a military background and happening to train in a martial art is significantly different from your martial art training with the modern tools, information, equipment, etc. which is why I said, how many people train the martial art using modern weapons, modern kit, modern tactics, modern context, modern fire support, etc. And that's literally only the military, and that's THEIR martial art.

    And you'll note MCMAP is 99% sportive/resistant method in training.

    Read response one with regard to implication in context.

    And this is where you're going well into self contradiction decrying the sportive/resistant method and then going "but I have no problem with it" and now you're going "but look what good results it produces."

    Wrestling, one of the oldest martial arts, a key component in military and weapons training for a long time. Trained using the sportive/resistant method.
    Spear throwing - ditto
    Marksmanship - ditto
    Arrest training - ditto
    Hunting - ditto
    Running - ditto
    Swimming - ditto

    They are one and the same. As Hannibal pointed out, resistance is integral to competition but not to other training, hence sportive/resistant. The metrics you gauge by are another matter entirely as I've said numerous times now. And for example with something like wrestling. Putting an NCAA wrestler with specific training in how to use the dagger in that context, against someone who has trained HEMA a while but isn't as good a wrestler and the better wrestler will have a significantly better chance of winning because of core competency. Wrestling skills.
    Same with what I was talking about with RP earlier. Give an Olympic fencer a bit to get used to HEMA and they'll have good HEMA skills because they have the core competencies of fencing down and they're transferring from one sportive/resistant context to another.


    That's still sportive/resistant

    You're just changing the metrics. Me hunting an animal isn't two people trying to out perform each other and win, still sport. And if I were doing live training trying to accurately replicate the context and pressure of that that's still sportive/resistant. I try to arrest you, you try to flee. It's still sport even if we don't have the same goals. But that hunting relies on certain core competencies. Someone with better marksmanship will be a better shot when they become a sniper. It should be pretty self evident that if you want to shoot well, shoot. If you want to make non-compliant arrests well, train making non-compliant arrests.

    1. That's outside the context of this discussion
    2. I'm not supposed to provide more information about my job than is currently available to the general public.

    You've been arguing against a sportive/resistant approach and the fact that it produces better competency while contradicting yourself on that point for pages.

    As I pointed out, they're one and the same. You just change the metrics. It's still the sportive/resistant model, for example the difference between HEMA and olympic fencing is based on that exact point. But it's still the sportive/resistant approach. The only way for it not to be would be them either using to resistance or straight up killing each other in training.

    But that has nothing to do with the training method and the core competencies of grappling remain the same whether you're wrestling someone to the ground to hold them there and make an arrest or wrestling someone to the ground to hold them there and put cuffs on them.

    It seems like you're confusing training for a specific context with sportive/resistant training. Like I said to dunc at one point. Armor up, stick people in a warehouse with structures, have them try to eliminate each other. Create whatever context you want for sportive/resistant training, just like the HEMA folks did. So you don't want to do wrestling, fine. Don't do wrestling. The core competencies of wrestling are still the same when you change the context from olympic to arrest. The sportive/resistant method is just the best way to train those skills and certain styles isolate out those core competencies as the focus of their training. Boxers punch better, wrestlers wrestle better. But even with a different context everyone who trains MMA has a boxing coach or a striking coach who does/has done boxing, even if only as a component of kickboxing or Muay Thai.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  17. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I have but I don't anymore, mostly because of injuries accrued. Unfortunately it wasn't legal at the time here so filming was discouraged and it was before phone cameras were common.
     
  18. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    oh...

    How about your students?
    or clips from pressured training at class?
     
  19. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Wear boxers cups and practice those flick groin kicks during clinch training. Wear gloves and throw jabs. They are the same as eye jabs.

    And generally just resist each other. You've done BJJ. Same principle. No point in poking people in clavicle if you are 1) you are in an inferior position and 2) don't have any decent base in a superior position.
     
  20. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Honestly I'm terrible at the media bit. Even on my website and social media I recycle a few pictures a lot. Plus I never had that many students, was never teaching that long. And I've taken a break from that.
     
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