Well, well, folks it's been five years since the occupation of Iraq and still no end in sight. Bush is still adamant that the war is a victory (see below) but others state otherwise. I'm curious as to what your views on the war are and if they've changed over the past few years? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3587063.ece
I have alot of family in Iraq and if the USA and other occupying countries pull out alot of people will die, much more then now.
But if they don't pull out we will be stuck with the situation we have now until they do so. Especially under the current poorly planned policy. I dunno, could the death toll get much worse than a million deaths if the troops do leave?
Unfortunately, I agree. We made a much of it and I think its our responsibility to clean up before we leave. I hate that we went over, I think that Bush was just plain dumb for having done it. But we can't just mess up everything and then take off like nothing happened. It is our responsibility to address the problems we created. I hate that I have loved ones over there in the military. I hate that they have to be there. But I don't really see any easy outs.
Anyone who thinks the US is going to clean up Iraq is kidding themselves. What... like they cleaned up Afghanistan? The whole issue of being there in the first place is what's gotten so many people killed and left so many homeless and as refugess. Saddam was bad... but hey that never stopped us from doing business with him before right. Of course not. Rummy and his ilk couldn't wait to do business with him. Do your homework people. Only when it didn't suit their financial forecasts was Saddam all of a sudden connected to all sorts of other evils... most of which never materialized... gee.. never hear much about WMD's these days do you. Of course you don't because they still haven't found anything even remotely on the level to what they were pawning off on Americans wrapped in red, white and blue and patriotic coated. Who is anyone kidding... Americans can't anymore find Iraq on a map now than they could 10 years ago. And before some of you start whining and bleeding red, white and blue all over the fricken carpet... that's not an indictment of the soldiers doing their duty... it's not calling them bad people, or having a go at them. But for those of you willing to take a look at the situation with more than a patriotic knee jerk reaction you'll realize it's a simple and accurate observation that the reason for being there in the first place is fundamentally flawed and the continued shambolic foreign policy of the current administration leaves everything to be desired and is directly responsible for the deaths of many innocent people. That you have a president and his cronies that would send young American soldiers off to die for some fraudulent reason in some place that's only gone all the more to hell since their arrival... well... that really highlights the abysmal state of affairs that it's been since day one.
War; God's way of teaching Americans geography. I heard an incredible quote from Rumsfeld (I think) recently which was along the lines of, "Once we defeat Sadam everything will be alright." This lack of any thought to what would happen after the war is what has landed us, and more importantly the members of the armed forces of several countries (including MAP members, so lets have some sensitivity to that folks), in the situation they are in now. This lack of planning for the aftermath of the war will haunt the entire world for generations and cost the lives of many. Let's hope that sooner, rather than later, some stability may emerge. And if America runs before then, there will be justifiable outrage that will follow in many Muslim countries. Mitch
Yes Think Bosnia in the 1990's. In other word not just segregation and skirmishing amongst communities but full-scale civil war in which fully organized militias attempt to wipe out whole populations. In Bosnia the Serbs, Croats and Muslims lived together in a reasonably peaceful multi ethnic community until the civil war. Once the main source of arbitrary violence comes from another ethnic or sectarian group - as it does in Iraq - there are two ways it can end. Either you have the South African or Northern Ireland model where piece meal connections are made between the communities and trust and cooperation is gradually restored - or you have the Bosnian model, where revenge incites revenge and warlords gain more and more power as people cling to them for security. To achieve reconciliation between communities what is needed is a reasonable amount of trust from the people in an authority to either deliver justice. In South Africa the truth and reconciliation commission was a channel for revenge, in Northern Ireland both republican and unionist parties retained power and where seen to be able to represent their people effectively. These both required a certain amount of security from an authority that has the power to keep the peace whilst bridges where being made and hatred defused. Someone will try to grab a monopoly on force and if it's not the Americans or a powerful government it will be the warlords and militias. There is not a legitimate authority in Iraq yet which has the trust of the people and is strong enough to enforce the rule of law, thus people revenge and cling to militias and warlords for protection and vengeance. However it is possible that the embryo of democratic government in Iraq will mature into a stable authority able to enforce the law onto even the most powerful warlords or militias – but it will take time and until then the warlords and militias are attempting to seize as much power as they can – only the coalition troops are stopping them seizing total control.
The fundamental flaw is the belief that you can impose democracy on a country and a culture that has never known it and has not been crying for it.
Personally, I think that we're doing more harm than good. Our troops aren't trained for what they're doing, which is basically acting as a police force. And our administration is squandering billions to pay off the families of those we're killing and those we're theoretically paying off not to betray us. It's a big mess, and I believe we're doing more harm than good in the region. The bottom line for me is that, while we do most definitely have an obligation to help stabilize the region, we can't do for them what they are unwilling to do for themselves. As a taxpayer, I think our money is better spent on domestic issues than paying off militant extremists, or paying for administrative incompetence. For what it's worth, my views haven't changed much over the last 7 years.
And he was 100% correct - From his own point of view. This may not make sense to the average American, who confuses the interests of men like Rumsfeld with their own. This is how they've been trained - to conflate their own interests with those of Military/Industrial/Petroleum/Zionist interests. Repeatedly, frustration results when events do not play out as expected. Nonetheless, the training continues to hold, and they continue to support further Imperial misadventures - to their own disadvantage. That's the price of freedom(tm).
The whole war stinks and i wish it had never happened. For all the Iraqi civilians who have died they might as well have dropped a nuke on it on the first day of the war. Anyway, you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink.
I'd argue to give democracy a chance you have to convince people democracy is the way to things they want like prosperity, stability, international respect ect.
I'm not so sure that many people are all that convinced when they look around their country and see destroyed... or they look out as refugees from some other country and see it occupied by western forces. I'm not so sure the average South Asian or Iraqi or Arab is really all that concerned what the western world thinks of their way of life. In fact I'd have to say the western world has this habit of basically telling them their way of life is wrong. I don't think that achieving a democracy is easy by any stretch. Seems to me it always requires copious amounts of bloodshed.
Yeh i agree with this post, apart from i think the bit ive highlighted. I think the East and the West both are guilty of telling each other how to live. Just it seems the West acts on it with military occupation! I just think that war is a sad thing, but it is here to stay. I think it very naïve to think that if the US or Europe hadn’t have gone in to Afg/iraq we would now be ushering in a time of unprecedented world peace. Im pretty sure that even without the US/UK going in we would still have ended up with some kind of war in the future (and we still will) That’s not to say I support this, but im sure before the human race is done we will see a good few wars yet.
Likewise the same for food poisoning, but that doesn't obligate you to offer week-old pizza to guests.
Ah, finally found the video I was looking for. This was orginally broadcasted on the Al-Jazeera English network. It's essentially a discussion between the General that helped lead the U.S to war and a political anaylist (sp?). It's a very interesting discussion. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEwkl4MS3Mc&feature=user"]Inside Iraq - Setting the foundation - 21 Mar 08 - Part 1 - YouTube[/ame] [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-eccI1W1ds&feature=related[/ame] Could the mods please add this to my OP?
