20 years to complete Wing Tsun?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by diamond_geezer, Sep 28, 2005.

  1. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    I am quite certain that most every system contains techniques that can be outright lethal if landed on the right target, and with no inhibitions. Mine certainly does.
     
  2. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    This is true, my deadliest technique from all the styles I learnt is a rear naked choke. I can practise with is in full contact sparring also.

    I've practised the eye poke and throat strikes, but I would say in effect the were no were near as deadly, this is because I never drilled then against a live opponent.

    Could I deploy these in a life threatening situation (taking about the fact that I wouldn't due to legality), it seems highly unlikely, I would have as much confidence in landing them as I would at landing a jumping tornado kick to the head, because my hours spent landing such against someone in a live scenario are 0.
    But both of these techniques I can do on a pad.
     
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  3. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    I'm guessing the deadly techniques?
    @mark heathcote
    I'm curious to know how you drill knife defence?
     
  4. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    Sorry but I feel that way about all branches of Wing Chun.

    Wing Chun is very well thought out but it thrives in its own eco-system, outside that eco-system it gets eaten alive by every predator out there (isn't that why JKD exsists)

    I would love to see an example on video about this from you. So could you please post a video of you defending a random knife attack?
     
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  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Depends how you train it.

    You can practice changing gear and emergency stops sat on a chair in your kitchen all you want, it will never make you a good driver.
     
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  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    any kind of choke can be deadly if you hold it for too long.
    I don’t think eye pokes are deadly, but certainly have the potential to be permanently disabling.
    Throat strikes can be deadly. I would say if you practice the strike on a heavy bag and learn to deliver them with good power, your chances of lethality are probably rather good, even if their dangerous nature makes them forbidden in sparring. This supposes that you land them without inhibitions. Your comment about holding back because of legal issues is what I mean by inhibitions. We have social, cultural, and legal norms that encourage us to not deliver lethal techniques unless we are convinced that we absolutely have no choice. But those lethal techniques exist, if we find that we need them.
     
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I can name plenty of cases of people dying from lack of oxygen and/or blood to the brain from pressure on the neck. How many cases of people dying from unarmed strikes to the throat can you think of?

    I'm not saying it's impossible, but how likely is it?
     
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    People are strangely tough and fragile at the same time.
    Can trip over a wire and dislocate a knee or get a brain hemorrhage or get beat on by 5 people and walk away with a few bruises.

    The only things I would regard as "lethal" to any degree are chokes where you are free to hold on as long as you want, weapon attacks and stamps to a downed opponent.
    Everything else has so many other variables it's just too hard to say what will be lethal.
     
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  9. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    I don’t have any examples to point to. But reasonable contemplation tells me it is entirely possible. How likely is it? Like everything, it depends on how well it is delivered, which depends on who does it, how well they have trained for it, and under what circumstances the delivery is made.

    like everything, it depends. Nothing is guaranteed.
     
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    The fact they are happening in training means they aren't random. You literally know they are coming.
    I'm not discounting training knife defence with progressive resistance but that 90+% will absolutely not translate into a real world success rate of that magnitude.
     
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  11. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Of course. It depends. Like everything.

    Certain strikes, delivered powerfully and to the correct angle to the head can have a high likelihood of traumatizing the neck which can be lethal. They can also topple someone over backwards and result in smashing their head on the ground. That can lead to a lethal result, especially if they hit something like concrete.

    but again, like everything, it depends. I don’t think anyone is claiming the lethality is guaranteed. But the potential is there and if you focus on that in training, developing the appropriate power and angle of delivery, then lethality is a real possibility if delivered without inhibitions.
     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    By definition, to lawfully use deadly force you must perceive yourself as being in a life and death situation. The above is far too much supposition for me to trust it in those circumstances.

    That doesn't mean I wouldn't use strikes to the throat, or even avoid them in low force encounters, but I wouldn't count on them.
     
  13. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    That’s fine. If I felt I needed to and was justified in killing someone, I doubt I would entirely rely on a throat strike either. It might be part of what I did, as less-than-lethal strikes to the throat are definitely disruptive to an enemy’s attack and could open other possibilities, regardless.

    if I was looking to kill someone outright, I would probably go for something else.
     
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  14. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    If I wanted to kill someone outright and I didn't have access to a pointy sharp thingy I'd hit them with the post dangerous blunt weapon in the world... the earth... And I'd use judo or wrestling to do it
     
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  15. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I'm discounting it.... as soon as I read simultaneously blocking and striking I switched off... it's so low percentage it's not worth trying, anyone who has really tried knife work under real pressure comes to the same conclusion ... Whilst anything can work the only thing that does over and over is controlling the knife arm and disarming or controlling and then hitting
     
  16. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    That would probably do it.

    I think when talking about lethal techniques, people often assume it must be something secret and unusual. But a simple and direct throw to the ground, making sure he lands on his head and/or neck, will get the job done.
     
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  17. mark heathcote

    mark heathcote New Member

    You first point is generally valid except that you cannot possibly have seen all branches. Like I said, very often badly taught. That said, it is a toolkit. It is down to the individual whether they have the mentality to apply it or not. That cannot be taught.
    2nd point re a video... maybe at some point, but most black belt type grades of most (non sport) systems would be able to stop most knives, it's just instincts and using your toolkit (but don't pre think the defence or you will fail). My point remains though, it is a last resort, you don't choose to go against a knife. it is no different really to stopping a punch and then eliminating, just the stakes are higher. Attacking the am instead of just blocking helps, as does simultaneous attack and defence... I am under no illusions though that this is not a real scenario.
     
  18. mark heathcote

    mark heathcote New Member

    haha, true of course. Oddly my rock climbing history taught me some good lessons about resisting panic and staying in mental control. Under panic everything but the most ingrained and trained instincts go out the window. Not something easy to teach I think.
     
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  19. mark heathcote

    mark heathcote New Member

    I entirely agree... it's not the same, and as I said above, it is last resort - you don't choose to go against a knife unless your ego is too powerful and that will be your undoing. You can only train what you can train to be as prepared as possible.
     
  20. mark heathcote

    mark heathcote New Member

    Simultaneous block / attack is just an option from the tool kit to quickly stun / temporarily incapacitate them to give time to escape - it needs to be well trained and embedded though, and depends on how the attack comes. It's just an option. Control you describe is also an option, but not against two attackers. Lots of options, you need to be able to assess and react on the fly. You will get cut, you may die, but the more tools you have the more likely you are to survive. Not disagreeing with anything being said and not claiming to be invincible, far frrom it. Recognising your own weaknesses and risks is part of being a martial artist. Being cocky and over confident in skills learned in training could get you killed. All the points are valid but it is a large topic that is impossible to describe all the options and scenarios... we can but train as much as we can, look to other systems for other ideas, test them as best we can and drill things to death under stress situations.
     

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