Absolutely amazing, I've long known that Boxing was the first true NHB fighting, (even more than pancration or Vale Tudo, what with the gouging and biting) But man the work you've compiled here is a real eye-opener. Absolutely Love it! Really interesting stuff man, I'll try to check out your sources in the near future.
Throws & Low Down Dirty Blows Hi All! Came across this article that may be of interest.... Many of the throws were in clear contraventionof the rule against seizing by “any part below the waist.” Rimmer, for instance,caught Tom Molineaux by the thighs “and threw him in the Lancashire style.” Cross-buttock throws were commonplace, and these usually entailed catching “by the hams,” while there were some very esoteric manoeuvring at times-as when Nicholls ran in furiously, got his head between Jones’ legs, grabbed his ankles, and “threw him with considerable violence.” Charging at opponentsand barging them was not much liked, but it was not thought unlawful. All blows were allowed except those below the waist, and although there were some accusations of low punching these rarely led to forfeiting the fight. In one instance which comes to mind, it took no less than seven “unfair blows” from Watson (and 100 rounds) before Hooper was declared the winner of their 1790 fight. Karate-style chops on the back of the neck, blows to kidneys, and holding round the neck with one arm while punching with the other-these were all accepted and admired. Whether or not holding by the hair to do the same was within Broughton’s rules is not certain, as there was some doubt over whether they forbade seizing by the “hams” or by the “hair.” Holding the hair might be considered “foul,” but was seldom penalised by umpires, and, incidentally, the proposal that after this had happened in the Jackson-Mendoza fight in 1795, boxers subsequently kept their hair cropped does not square at all with the many contemporary prints of pugilists-hair was nearly always short, and the pioneers, Figg and Broughton, were among the most shorn of them all. Journal of Sport History, Vol. 12, No. 2 (Summer, 1985)
poliakoff s wrong :bang: Poliakoffs writes a lot of bull..... In the past the mediterranean wrestlers sometimes kept a sort of cuir helmet to preserve their hair from dust, not from hair pulling
OMG! The punches, the guard, the stance, the concepts. My instructor wasn't lying when he said Wing Chun was closer to Traditional Bareknuckle Boxing than anything else. I mean look at the http://ahfaa.org/boxingstance.htm site the stance and guard is pretty much exactly like the WSL WC stance and guard, even with the distinct slight leaning backwards.
What exactly were the rules of bareknuckle matches typically? Was kicking allowed? It seems that takedowns were a big part of it, what about groundfighting?
I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of approval for this thread. Please keep the info coming. If only there was a place in Calgary where I could check this out. -Mark
Corkscrew punch This punch was invented by Kid McCoy. McCoy's "corkscrew" punch was famous for the cutting damage it inflicted on opponents' faces, and he was known for his trickery and unpredictability in the ring as well.
Just a thought. Seeing the simularity to WC, is it possible that WC was created by Chinese who learnt Bareknuckle boxing from the British Settlers? I could be way off the mark but no one knows exactly where WC has come from.
I doubt that, at least, not in its entirety. Wing Chun has close ties with other older Chinese Martial Arts. The most likely (not proved or anything; it just makes so much more sense than the other stories I've heard) story I have heard about the source of Wing Chun is different. Let me explain: Mr Martin Watts (he sometimes reads and write on this forum) has been on a trip to China, some time ago; he went to the town of Yong Chun in the province of Fujian. Now, Yong Chun (in case you didn't know), is also the Mandarin pronounciation for Wing Chun. Now, it would make sense that Wing Chun would have originated from that town, right? Yet, when Mr Watts came to Yong Chun, he did not find a significant amount of Wing Chun Quen being practiced; what he found, though, is that the villagers practiced an art they call Yong Chun Bai He (Yong Chun White Crane). Now what would make much sense is that Wing Chun is an offspring of this Yong Chun Bai He, perhaps even not volountarly split (perhaps one master just didn't like to use the last part and cut the name to Wing Chun). Many styles have originated from White Crane, like the five Fuzhou White Crane arts (one of which I practice). Other things that could indicate this history could be true: Wing Chun and White Crane seem to have much in common: fondness with short power (though the short power is not exactly of the same origin), centerline, stances are similar, guards are similar (importance in keeping one's bridge and on breaking the opponent's), use of push-hands (which is very close in purpose to Chi Sao)... Some claim that Wing Chun originates (directly of through the teaching of a master) from a lady. This is also true of White Crane. While snooping around on the net, I seem to get the impression that this is a view held by many. Mr Watts says it in a much more scholarly manner in this post.
Even before I started training, I did practice a similar punch; mostly from what I gathered from watching karate stuff (although I did not put enough shoulder into it). I also practice a similar punch (but better ;D) now that I train seriously in Kung Fu. While it sounds like basic stuff for Asian Martial Arts, this must have been a very shocking thing to experience for a Bareknuckle not expecting such a "twist" (pun intended). CMAs also tend to incorporate "secret" techniques meant to twart or surprise other styles of CMAs, so this again shows the closeness between Bareknuckle boxing and asian martial arts.
Boxing & Wing Chun The similarities between Wing Chun and Early forms of Western Boxing have been the topic of discussion many, many years ago in an article in Combat magazine. The writer suggested that British sailors 'boxing' in the Chinese ports of Hong Kong, etc, had influenced arts such as Wing Chun. There have been similar discussions regarding Filipino MA being influenced by Spanish rapier fencing and UK & US Navy personel performing single-stick fencing. The answer to the question is we will never know, but it would be a shame to dismiss western arts as inferior to the more popular asian ones. Louie PLEASE CONTINUE ANY FURTHER BOXING-WING CHUN DISCUSSION ON A NEW THREAD...... CHEERS!
It would be both a shame and also wildly inaccurate. Any society that fights a lot will discover the most effective ways to do damage to their enemies. Best regards, -Mark
I'm actually in the middle of writing an article about pugilism, so keep your eyes out for it in a couple of weeks.
I must just say that you have done a great work gathering this information Louie. I try to train some of the stances and guards every now and then. Even if i have trained kickboxing for 5 years this stuff feels more natural to me for some reason... well anyway, many thanks to you Louie for all this infromation
I do like this thread as well an just found it. I agree with alot of the stuff said here Wing Chung i study it an do think it has alot in common with Old Boxing method an even to days dirty boxing. They all try to apply very simple an specific idea that build a natural strong foundation with the hands.