This thread might possibly save your life.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Tom bayley, Oct 3, 2017.

  1. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Not Hannibal but...anything can work but in all honestly go watch a clip of a commited knife attack watch the distance it happens at, the ferocity of it, then think if you would have the time to kick anyone unless they were playing around and not serious
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    Wrestling/BJJ/judo (my prefence in that order) all fill the grappling component

    Muay Thai I consider a substitute for boxing, but for SD I consider it a close second

    The third is a reputable FMA style - my preference is Serrada, but there are many other solid systems such as Balitinawak, Rapid Arnis etc
     
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  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    My feelings exactly

    I want consistency in my arsenal where the consequences are life and death and do not consider the jeet tek/side kick viable for how the encounters tend to go down
     
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  4. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    This is from 5 years ago, a session with John Titchen up near Nottingham working knife defences. The students are armoured up to allow strikes, but the knife is just a rubber training knife. This is live training with an attacker working at full speed, but you can see here an example of 2 on 1 and taking down with an armbar control. it's not perfect, it's not a demo, it's just a snapshot from a live attack, but you can see the principles in play.

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    Having issues seeing the image Mitch
     
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  6. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I was having issues posting it :D

    Hopefully Simon has sorted it now :)

    Mitch

    Edit to add, it's late in the sequence, but essentially it was 2 on 1, move to outside, control arm. Lots more to it than that of course, but you get the gist :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  7. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Just out of interest how many times did you did during the training?!
     
  8. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    How many times did students manage the exercise perfectly? Honestly I can't remember, and it's something we don't do a lot of so they weren't familiar with it which will have lowered the success rate.

    It was by no means a sure thing, and as I remember it many people got caught, even when they managed to secure the limb on a subsequent thrust, even though we were working angles, scooting hips back etc etc.

    That's not a comment on the quality of the training, that's just an acknowledgement of how difficult it is to deal with knives in any kind of realistic setting, especially for people who don't train it a lot.

    I don't have any film, I think we had camera battery problems on the day, otherwise I'd post some.

    But yes, my experience was that anything against a knife attack is very much, "die less often," not, "here are 5 guaranteed ways to take down any knife attacker."

    @Smitfire was there for that one, he may be able to give you another perspective.

    Mitch
     
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  9. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Thought that would be the response and r wasn't a trick question i think this is partly why Tom isn't getting the response rate he wants, those that do this often know it's hard, know it's dangerous and know there isn't a magic cure or silver bullet to tell.everyone about
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    Ding!

    Give the man a see garr

    :)
     
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  11. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Actually, No.

    I very specifically was not looking for a magic cure or silver bullet. In fact my original post was seeking not a specific answer (as in my opinion their isn't one) but rather to seek a consensus on what would constitute good mechanics, structure, and strategy in knife defence and why.

    My original post and question.

    "A series of posts on another thread got me thinking that it might be helpful to have a thread that discusses what constitutes good mechanics, good structure, and good strategy in techniques for defending against knife attacks.

    It is my hope that we could work towards a short list of clear aims and a set of criteria for judging whether any technique might meet those aims."
     
  12. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    It's good to be on the outside of his weapon arm. He has fewer attack options, then, with the weapon.
    ('Course, there's the possibility of changing hands, but, anyway.)
     
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    "Zero pressure" as it is also known
     
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  14. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I like Iain Abernethy's take on self defence and weapon defence.

    Self defence = Pre-emptively and pro-actively smash him in the head and neck until you can make a safe escape. If he thwarts that, clear and control his limbs and continue to smash him in the head and neck until you can make a safe escape.

    Knife defence = Pre-emptively and pro-actively smash him in the head and neck until you can make a safe escape. If he thwarts that, clear and control his limbs and continue to smash him in the head and neck until you can make a safe escape.

    Baseball bat defence = Pre-emptively and pro-actively smash him in the head and neck until you can make a safe escape. If he thwarts that, clear and control his limbs and continue to smash him in the head and neck until you can make a safe escape.

    Keeps things simple. :)
     
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  15. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    Ya, in that same line of thinking, 100 years ago when I was doing Hock Hochheim's knife stuff, we had a drill where for each of the 12 angles, the defender had to somehow reasonably grab the incoming limb 2-on-1 (just like Hannibal was saying), and then strike at least twice (punch, elbow, knee) in some reasonable way that might actually hurt, and then do a reasonable takedown -- meaning, you don't get cut as he falls.

    If it looked pretty, it would probably be deemed "wrong" :p because it probably wouldn't work against a real attacker. o_O:(
     
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  16. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Gar are exclusively freshwater.
     
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Hock Hochiem's stuff is great and forms the basis of my views in knife defence. It's goal driven rather than technique driven and fairly simple.
    Move, grab/control, punish, takedown, run.
     
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  18. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu Supporter

    I think I see a pattern here. is it to do with the stance? ;)
     
  19. EdiSco

    EdiSco Valued Member

    Dam! Even a gun could be useless against knife :eek:

     
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  20. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Hannibal, could you please expand on what you mean by "Zero pressure" and how the concept of Zero pressure might be of help in defence against a knife? If you could include the origins of the term that would also be really usefull. Knowing where ideas/concepts come from often helps to contextualise them.
     

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