This thread might possibly save your life.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Tom bayley, Oct 3, 2017.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You have a problem in training though; in that it isn't smart training to knock your training partners out on a regular enough basis to become confident in it. So grappling solutions become the answer in training, and become reflex. Though even with pulled strikes I find they make the grappling component easier in training.

    For some reason people seem to expect a one-size-fits-all approach to knife defence, when they don't expect the same with empty hand fighting.
     
  2. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    This actually makes sense if there's nowhere else to go! But first, I'd act all scared and petrified (I would be anyways!) as if I'm not going to defend myself and am surrendering...then out of the blue hardest kicks to knee or groin. I actually just tried it and it's quite difficult to kick up when you're right against the wall. It's easier if you're a bit away from the wall and at least one of your hand is on the floor to support your strikes.
     
  3. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    I suppose it's all context dependent. We didn't really define the scenario in that OP, did we? But sure, I concede that sometimes everything is at eye-blink speed.
     
  4. SCA

    SCA Former Instructor

    If you found yourself floored and cornered, kicking would be a way. That's not a place you want to be if you can help it, though.
     
  5. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    Yep. My instinct would be to throw a good teep or sidekicks - sidekick the hell out of his lower body. Again, pretend I'm going to grapple/surrender or punch then out of the blue throw teep/sidekicks.
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It's not so much speed as ferocity, and the fact that it is a very shocking scenario to find yourself in. Plus the fact that to do damage with a knife you don't need the same kind of power base as striking unarmed, and it's much easier to angle the weapon to do damage, so attacks can come out of nowhere even when you think you've got it covered.

    Knives are formidable weapons, even in the hands of the untrained, and generally very difficult to deal with. By far the most effective tactic I've found is to attack pre-emptively before they initiate an attack, but that presumes you already know they are armed.
     
  7. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Wrapping the jacket and using as a shield against a knife is literally what Jackie Chan said to do in a video he did with Olivia Munn on some social media promo video. (he also had her headbutt a wood plate)


    Edit: video found @1min 15s (please advice swearing in here but bleeped)
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
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  8. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    My aim in starting this thread was to work towards a consensus on what aims, mechanics, applications, and approaches are beneficial when defending from someone wielding a knife. So i did not want to over-specify the situation.

    For the moment for sake of clarity lets say, an opponent gets close to you then launches an surprise attack. You know they have a knife. you have time to react, then to counter.

    What kinds of reaction are appropriate? / helpful? and why? Are they situation specific? e.g appropriate for a thrust rather than a slash. if so what is it about the situation that makes that reaction appropriate? What are the pros and cons.

    What kinds of counter attacks are appropriate? / helpful? and why? Are they situation specific? e.g comparative reach. the technique i hope to post works well for me because I am tall and have long arms. It does not work nearly as well for people who are short or have short arms.
     
  9. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Are we agreed that this is generally true ? I would agree.

    This is a point that I demonstrate with my students. Tactics in open hand fights often rely on making it difficult for the opponent to strike with power, forcing them to either trade giving a weaker strike against receiving a more powerful strike. or to loose a beat as they adjust their position. but with a knife the attacker can be falling away from the defender, with no effective base and still kill by extending an arm.

    If it is true how should we teach how to adjust for this?
     
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    My sop is:
    If you can see it and you can: run
    If you can't run, also arm yourself, but if you can't and they're super (they will be) close, 2 on 1, and angle to the outside if you can, to a Russian tie, knees to the leg if you can, or drag them down if that's your best option.

    Always Stay on top, drive the knife into the floor to disarm if that what you need to do.

    Also first aid skills are essential.

    Thats a very loose idea, there's a lot of context dependent options there too.

    Side note: I can't imagine Sandles (the main abir guy is fond of wearing them) are good for running, so maybe think about footwear.
     
  11. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    For counters - getting a two on one (your two hands on their one limb). Both increases the mechanical control over the limb and provides greater access to controlling the body. all good.

    One down side for me is i would find it very hard to get a two hands on in a single beat. I would find it easier in two beats. Index with the first hand. contact with the second hand while moving to improve my position. But that is still taking the extra beat.

    Is the risk of securing a two for one repaid by the much greater control a two for one gives you after once you have secured it? Quite possibly. what do others think?
     
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If theyre close enough to be stabbing you, theyre close enough to grab, if your operating at a distance, you should be running.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  13. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    What principles or strategies underly this choice of techniques?
     
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I don't fancy my chances slugging someone out who has an equal chance of hitting me with the knife they're holding.

    2 on 1 is the strongest arm control you can have, it also allows you to move away from the free arm, it allows you to knee, access to the back, keeps the head high to win scrambles, and gives the behind area to run into.

    It also mirrors part of my bjj and wrestling game, which is ideal, but it's not seen in mma much vs strikes, but it is seen in combat sambo so maybe it's a training background thing.

    Edit, I used to do a fair bit of generic knife defense rubber knife training, and this is the only tactic that worked well for me, and it's before I really had much Russian tie training.
     
  15. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Do you find these approaches to be more or less suited to countering against a particular type of knife grip (e.g sabre, hammer, revers) or a particular type of attack (stab, fore hand slash, backhand slash?) If so why?

    One of the reasons why I chose the original example in the clip is that the set up is legitimate. A surprise thrust leads to a instinctive reaction to move back and off line away from the danger. But in this position I would find it difficult to get two hands on their one and quickly establish control. Particularity if I had moved more back than I had to the side. so i would be more square on. (I would not want to do this but I am not sure how much control I would have over my initial instinctive response).
     
  16. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Which brings up another point, do people find it helpful to separate the defence into - instinctive response, followed by thinking response?

    The instinctive response being the immediate unthinking reflex response to the situation. The thinking response being when the brain has time to catch up with what is going on and to come up with conscious decisions as to what to do next.

    Personally, I do, it gives me a script/framework that I can use to make sense of the process of the attack. What do other people think?
     
  17. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    My problem is getting two hands on the weapon limb, in one motion, without either impaling myself on the grab or leaving an opening for the attacker to servery injure one of my limbs.

    I understand in principle that I am going to get cut in a knife fight but I dont want to get cut so bad that I am unable to continue use a limb to defend myself. Is their a way of assessing risk /vs reward? what do people think?
     
  18. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Note on motor control and thinking - some interesting research in cognitive psychology shows that the pathway in the brain that controls making sense /scripting a situation, and the parthway in the brain coordinating movement and action mutual interfere with each other. and that it can be difficult to shift from thinking mode to acting mode and vice versa.

    The easy to remember example is good sex and bad sex. In good sex your are present in the moment and act. In Bad sex an intrusive script/dialog in your head makes it hard to simply act.
     
  19. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I think you see less 2 on 1s in mma due to range, distance, limb retraction and the fact as you go for it and have it he has three other limbs to hit you with, in grappling those things are different.

    with a knife you aren't worried about his other weapons so much his limb will be more extended and he will be closer more like hand fighting range, all making the 2 on 1 easier to get and hold
     
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  20. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    Just a question, would the person having another knife change the dynamic in this?

    Doesnt this also depend on the type of stance they are taking and the length of said knife as well?

    I can think of a inconvience for this if they keep moving the knife hand seemingly randomly as they advance or keep it behind their non knife hand and bait responses that way. (will get pics if needed)

    (then again i dont really know what a Russian tie is, i am watching a video but thats only useful to some extent)

    Edit: I think the comment "where is my precious HEMA now" might be brought up, that relies on you having a knife to fight somone with a knife with. :p
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017

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