Specific question about katas

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Corwin Icewolf, Aug 8, 2016.

  1. Corwin Icewolf

    Corwin Icewolf New Member

    Then we're back to original issue I was concerned about. Which I just found out the technical term for.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_transfer_(memory)

    Basically it goes like this. Say I'm in a fight with someone and muscle memory goes: "Hey a punch. I remember this still. The next move is a left block! I'll just go ahead and do one of those without consulting the brain!" Only the guy I was fighting wasn't about to attack my left. He was kind of just seeing what I would do. So upon seeing me attempt to block a nonexistent punch like an idiot he kicks me in the groin, causing me to collapse and lose the fight.

    I'm not really worried about going into a dance routine in the middle of a fight, just my cerebellum making a poor decision because it didn't consult the neocortex.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  2. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Do you spell wrong just because you learned the alphabet speech? Does your brain tell you that B must come after A when you're speaking quickly? Forms are the alphabet. They are a method for practicing coordinated movements which can then be picked apart and recombined in different ways to do different things. You're still mistaking this connected series of coordination drills for two-man drills.

    What you practice under pressure is what you will do under pressure. What you practice under pressure is not a rote sequence. Never has this been a problem for me, or anyone else who does form training and application. Forms just improve the precision of the movements you take into the high pressure environment.
     
  3. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    @Corwin: kata is the Japanese name for what we call forms. I am referring primarily to long solo forms as found in Karate, Chinese martial arts, Taekwondo, etc, whereas there are also partner drills of varying lengths, which in some systems are called kata and can also be performed solo. Also, depends on what you mean by muscle memory. If you mean instinctively executing the movements as in a solo drill, yeah, that's not happening. You have an opponent. You have to do things to the opponent. In a solo form, you are moving by yourself, with nothing to resist you. one possible interpretation of many, some otherwise bizarre, movements is that they are motor patterns the movements from which would be stopped by the other's body as you apply force to it, but in the absence of it, you either follow through completely, or must truncate the movement to not compromise your own balance and posture (ie you would fall on your face if you did it against empty air).

    When you're doing stuff for real, you are going to do what you need to do, not an arbitrary part of a form, BUT you will have motor patterns trained that, if well grooved, will strengthen the movements you're trying to do (movements which you MUST train against another to know how to do).
     
  4. Corwin Icewolf

    Corwin Icewolf New Member

    I'm not sure that's the same thing. words get formed in your brain before they are spoken, and while not in the way you're talking about negative transfer happens when speaking all the time.

    But what you're saying is rote actions won't cause negative transfer?

    Hmm... if I had a video game controller for a new game system in my hand and played with the buttons I'd learn where they were but... Okay I get it now, thanks. Fooling around with a game controller no matter how long won't transfer to actually playing the game and you're saying this is the equivalent.

    Though I still can't help but think a kata has more similarities to a two man drill than the examples we're looking at... it's all punching and kicking anyway. And some do even tell you to picture an opponent when you do katas.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2016
  5. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    No one has ever screwed up the next step in a fight because of their kata. People screw up because of what they train to do under pressure. Katas polish those movements.

    Here's a better example. Batters routinely practice the motion path of their swing by doing the swing, then returning to the starting position, and repeating. No batter has ever done this when they swing to hit the ball. They do what they have done a thousand times when people are actually throwing at them; swing through hard and then stop, or ditch the bat and run. Katas are practicing the motion path.

    Sometimes to help you understand some potential applications of what you're doing but it doesn't mean that what you're picturing is the only application or that what comes next in the form is what you would want to do next in a live scenario. Heck there are bits in forms which you will never see in live scenarios because again, they just train coordination and not necessarily an expression the way you would see live.
     
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Form is different from dictionary. Forms also contain grammar.

    "This (subject) is (verb) a (article) book (object)."
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  7. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I know, I was just trying to break this down to the simplest ideas possible since he seems to be having trouble grasping the concept.
     
  8. Corwin Icewolf

    Corwin Icewolf New Member

    No one's ever explained it this way, tbh. The explanation I've received when I've asked instructors in the past boiled down to "I'm a mighty black belt so don't question me."
    Yeah I knew they had a lot more experience than me, but am actual clarification is nice sometimes.


    As if asking a question about a practice in a martial art was somehow disrespectful to the art. The only one that didn't practiced judo, and jiu-jitsu which don't have katas in the sense that karate does and hapkido at a school that didn't teach forms.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yes, no, and sort of.

    They are both solo drills and that's about where the similarity ends.

    Shadow boxing is specifically designed to spar with and imaginary partner in a nonrestrictive flowing back and forth of techniques depending on the imaginary opponents strengths and weaknesses and other factors (height, weight, skill etc).

    Kata is either dancing or depending on how you do it, knocking down imaginary attackers with non-effective attacks in a pre-determined manner. Certainly fighting techniques can be extracted if the person has imagination and focus. I refer you to JT's printed works. Nothing in a solo kata is used in a fight exactly as it's practised, it has to be extracted and broken down.
     
  10. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Most of the time, clarification of questions such as this one are not worth the effort. Usually, these questions are asked by people with very little experience in the art, so trying to formulate an answer that can be understood is time consuming and frustrating. That time and patience is much better spent trying to correct people's practice, so the usual response is "just do it!"

    From an instructor's point of view, a student will either get after it and practice hard enough to try and find the answers on their own, or they'll get tired of the practice and quit to go on to something else. Either way, trying to answer questions that the student is not ready to understand is a waste of my time, and I have no time to waste.

    Just another opinion to think about.

    P.S. The primary method of passing on classical Japanese arts is two person kata. It has been that way for several hundred years.
     
  11. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    An article I wrote on dissecting forms/kata a few years ago:

     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  12. Corwin Icewolf

    Corwin Icewolf New Member

    That's true, but to look at it another way, blindly following a teacher helps people lucky enough to have good teachers but hinders people with bad teachers. I come in with no real way of knowing if I have a bad teacher or not, and can't even trust my own experience for the reason you just said. They may be trying to teach something I probably won't get. So if they won't at least try to give me an answer (even, "that's something that's really hard to understand as a white belt" is something i can accept as opposed to "just do it") then it doesn't feel worth the risk to stay with that teacher.

    Yeah but in my experience American dojos rarely do two person katas.
     
  13. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    In forms there is no you to apply a load on you, so you load yourself. In application you apply load on opponent.
     
  14. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    That's true, and used to be a large problem back in the '80s when ninjas and kung fu and "authentic Japanese martial arts" were proliferating, and knowledge was pretty difficult to come by. However, in today's world where huge amounts of information are available for the digging, there's no excuse for not knowing if you're in a legitimate martial art that will fulfill the requirements that you wish it to. If you properly exercise your Google-fu, it should be a fairly easy matter to get background information on any art, instructor, or dojo. Much preferable to wanting others to do your thinking for you. In fact, I try to actively discourage anyone that isn't up to putting in their own effort. :)


    This is true, because the original arts that Japanese karate were formed from did not have two person kata. However, most Japanese arts also have solo kata, and the methodology is the same. Hurts less when you move wrong though. :)
     
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Most of the 2 men forms were created in such a way that the 1st half of the form can match to the 2nd half of the form. So 2 men form can be solo form by default.
     
  16. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    ???

    I've no idea what art you're talking about, you should be more specific. If you're talking about the ryukyu arts that Japanese karate came from, there were no two man forms created for them that I've heard of. If you're talking about the classical Japanese martial arts, you're incorrect in your statement.
     
  17. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I'm talking about MA in general and not just Japanese MA. I know 2 open hand forms and 1 sword form that was designed this way.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2016
  18. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    But you quoted my post about the original arts from which Japanese karate was created, so that led me to believe that this was what you were referring to. I had no way of knowing that you were talking about something completely different than the subject you quoted.

    Also, there is no such thing as "martial arts in general". Each individual art has its own history and reasons for doing things the way they do.
     
  19. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    I seriously have a hard time arguing this. I actually agree with you on this. To a point.

    I shadowbox daily. I do kata daily. I do not actually spar like either. I however imagine an opponent while doing both.


    If you drill the same routine daily solo. Regardless of art, boxing, kick boxing, muay Thai etc. Is that basicly not a kata? I admit traditional kata are more of a warrior dance, but is it really all that diffrent from shadow boxing? They teach you technique and muscle memory.

    I recall a thread where several of us admitted to being caught doing shadow boxing or kata. With the obvious ribbing from onlookers.
     
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    Slight detail for Corwin (pgsmith, please correct me if I err): Karate is not a classical Japanese art, it's a semi-modern Okinawan art that was introduced to Japan as it was being codified, and was subsequently influenced by its introduction to the Japanese mainland and is now counted among the JMA but under the umbrella of the newer "Gendai" arts (along with others like Judo, Kendo and Aikido, I believe), as opposed to the "Koryu", or old-school, styles, which is what pgsmith refers to as classical Japanese arts, and which as he mentioned make very heavy use of (to my knowledge, mostly short-form) two person kata:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNPRTEv-tgs"]Yagyu Shingan ryu jujutsu (koryu budo bujutsu martial arts samurai) PART 1 - YouTube[/ame]
    https://youtu.be/cQB5Lc1C_a8?t=189

    Whereas Karate, probably through its Chinese martial art influences, uses more long-form solo kata akin to, but mostly still noticeably distinct to, the long-form, well, forms :)p) of Chinese martial arts, many of which actually do have two-person sets, which are also mostly long-form:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N77vu8V9ASw"]Liu Lian Jun ( Bajiquan ) - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm4kwfaMXn8"]Choy Lee Fut two man set - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9zS_OgVWNk"]Master Li Tianji: Wudang Sword 2 Person Set - YouTube[/ame]
     

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