Should techniques from a specific MA be deployed in fights from a completely different MA?

Oh yeah...John Titchen knows how to apply his Karate too.

 

Look at the supposed bunkai at :30 of that video. Awful. Attacker starts miles away and throws a strict Karate punch that would barely graze the defender if the defender just stood static where he already was. Plus he's pretty psychic to know what attack is coming from behind him. Good job he guessed right.
In Abernethy's methods the attack is never a karate punch and the pivoting is a guide to where you should turn in relation to your opponent not where the attack is coming from.

 

Honey and Mumford four Learning Styles


To take a slightly different view of the question. I would say that whether unorthodox attacks should be allowed need not depend on what you ultimately want to do with your karate. it may be that you want to learn to deal with unorthodox attacks but that at the present Unorthodoxy is interfering with what you are learning right now.

Some people prefer to learn by getting all their ducks in a row first. For these people encountering unorthodox methods early on is a problem because it makes it harder for them to learn. these people are know as reflectors (above). Other people like to learn by deliberately going off script to see what happens. this helps them to test their understanding as they go along. these people are known as pragmatists.

Pragmatists often find it hard to stick to the orthodox and find it hard to learn by sticking to the orthodox. Reflectors find it hard to deviate from the orthodox and find it hard to learn when they encounter the unorthodox.

People tend to rely more on just one or tow styles of learning. (for a number of reasons to do with both cognitive and emotional psychology). People will always learn better from one or two styles. But each style actually helps you to learn slightly different things. so a fully developed learner must use all styles at least a little bit. Learning skills in all four styles can be improved but a person will always be better at one or two, and not so god at one.

So should unorthodox moves be allowed ? - It depends on your own learning profile and where you are on the learning curve of your art.

Thinking of connotative function again. Karate mum it sounds like your working memory is being overloaded and/ or your spacial/visual processor is being overloaded in sparring. Don't worry. Over time you will develop a better understanding how people move in a fight and of how you move in a fight. this will reduce the load on your working memory as it will have a structure to work from when making sense of what is going on. This in tern will reduce the pressure put on your spacial visual processor.

In short you should find that over time fighting is less confusing and you will be able to recognise, and react to the unorthodox with ease.

 

i just realised what you mean. Abernathy does karate back to the attacker but the attacker need not be doing karate to him.

Check! That's how it should be with any art.

 

Personally I'm of the opinion that if it's allowed within the rule set then that's the end of the conversation. If it's against the instructors wishes then that's a different story. It's down to the instructor to sort it out.

Where I train, there's these two guys I spar with, one was a good amateur boxer, and the other is an old school ITF TKD style guy with loads of kickboxing experience. Both of them can whoop me in very different ways. This can only benefit me as the only way to disrupt patterns is to recognise them.

If you can't recognise a combination it's because you've not experienced it. If you haven't experienced it you're going to get hit with it and it will be worse when it's not in a dojo.

Also, if you're dropping your hands to block any punch, you're asking to be kicked in the chops

 

or: hit with the other hand, drawn out with a fient and hit with the same hand, shot by your coach, dumped by your partner and disowned by your family. It's so not worth it

 

If your orthodoxy consists of principles that cover general human movement, then it shouldn't be a problem. If your orthodoxy only covers a limited set of movements, then I'd say it's time to get unorthodox

 

Iain stresses he doesn't want the attacker doing anything to him. His bunkai is something he does to the attacker not with the attacker. He doesn't want to get into a sparring type "your go/my go" rythme. It's "my go, my go, my go" until the danger has passed (either through incapacity or escape).

 

Agreed - that's why I said "to" and not "with". Self defence is not a matter of taking turns.

This said. Under a certain restricted set of situations it may be of benefit to allow the attacker the opportunity to reconsider their actions and permit the attacker to withdraw.

For example, a mildly drunk stranger lays a hand on your arm in a pub. Do you (A) snap on a wrist lock, drive them to their knees and knee them in the face? or do you (B) slip out of their grip, bridge to control their arm creating a fence that stops them reaching you with their other hand or head butt and assertively say "No". Giving the attacker the opportunity to back away ?

So far I have only ever done (B) and it has worked out OK on more than one occasion. If, however, I thought the situation warranted it i would do (A) without a moments hesitation.

 

the point I was making was not about what is learnt but about the differences in how people learn.

If the aim of training is to learn self defence it is essential to learn how to deal with unscripted, unorthodox attacks. But different people learn better in different ways. Some people would learn better from experiencing unscripted, unorthodox attacks right from the get go. Others would learn better from experiencing Orthodox, scripted attacks at first then following a programme of increasingly less scripted and more unorthodox attacks later.

 

This is a really interesting discussion folks, on phone at the moment so not easy to type a big reply, or to click for 'likes' but a really interesting read so far. I hadn't spotted the 2nd page hence a lack of feedback, but I wanted to say that I appreciate all the thoughts. More in a couple days when back with a proper keyboard.

 

Most students in my Karate dojo come from diverse backgrounds.

One guy has a very strong Hung Fut background. He's very difficult to knock off balance, and he always hits me with unorthidox strikes.

One woman is also a Wing Chun practitioner, and is very good at exploiting the centreline.

Two others also train in Muay Thai. They have excellent low-leg blocks and almost never gas.

I pretty much fight like the G0rn from Star Trek TOS, so each student has their own advantage over me. I relish sparring with everyone because they all expand my skills as a martial artist in their own unique way.

As I've said before, I don't aim to win against others in my own Dojo. I aim to learn, and that's a win for me.