So this is not so much about religions and their connections to martial arts but about your discomfort with one specific religion?
Dean, have I told you to convert to veganism? Absolutely not. Have many of you taken pot shots at me for being outspoken? Absolutely. I have addressed veganism only where it's applicable. On the specific thread about Cancer I mentioned meat as well as vaccinations for causing more Cancer then anything else. I also mentioned how switching to a vegan diet can cure most cancers and this has been demonstrated over and over again. Even the documentary, Forks Over Knives addresses this topic. However, I don't run around in every post screaming Go Vegan. That's not my style. Because of that, I find it interesting that people feel a need to draw some sort of analogy between this thread and other threads I have commented on. They have nothing to do with this thread. This thread is about religion. It's not about veganism. It's not about vaccines. It's not about cancer and certainly not about Dental Health. The threads I have created on MAP were made because I was seeking answers or support, not attacks. Frankly, I could care less who eats meat here on this forum. I have been forced to say specific things to those who feel it's fine to attack my lifestyle. When I do, I'm suddenly the bad guy. So, if I say I have a problem with religion am I a bad guy? What reason can anyone have to draw an analogy on this thread other then for the sake of taking a pot shot at me? I'm starting to wonder if it's ok to ask any questions here?
:topic:That wasn't in California, was it? By the author Lon Milo DuQuette? Probably not, but it sounds like this thing I went to by Duquette for awhile. Although, come to think of it, the house wasn't declining- it was nice. But he and or his wife drove an old hippy van. Anyways, I feel sorry for your ex. Someone who has that strong of a reaction to something is actually still being controlled by the very thing they are rebellling against. To truly break away from an ideology, religion, group etc. one must not be reacting strongly- either in a positive or negative way. She was still in the grips of the very thing she disliked. Not to mention it was also blatant religious bigotry.
I get what he is saying. Listen. there are ties to Taoism and Buddhism in TCMA. Sometimes the cultural connection is intertwined and that makes sense. But the fact is there ARE some Christian groups out there who do what I already mentioned. They use MA as something to draw people in, then use MA to try and convert people. It is completely out of any cultural context. It has no business in a MA school. If I go to a business, I want to get the services of that business. My religion is none of their business. If I go to my Chiropractor, I expect to not have someone preaching at me about their Church. If I go to the supermarket, same thing. Again I ask, I have never heard of a religion using MA to convert people to said religion besides Christianity. Has anyone else? It is a real thing. My first teacher ran into it looking for a school when he moved to another state. There is that aweful, yet hilarious, sherdog thread of some such group mixing a MA demonstration with religious themes. It exists. And no, this is not against Chritianity in general, just the extremists that prosletize in this or similar ways. I get religious bible tracts and invitations to Churches, and knocks on my home door all the time. Guess what? It is never someone trying to convert me to Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism.............it is always certain Christian extremists. It may be different in other parts of the world, but this is what it is like where I live.
Mdgee, would you mind answering a couple of questions I asked in the thread earlier? (I should clarify when I say "School as a whole", I'm interested in knowing if the other students are all doing the same thing as well, if multiple instructors are doing it and if the school actually advertises themselves as a religious school) It would help clear up a lot of information for me. ===== That is a fair point. But at the same time (playing Devil's Advocate) there is a difference between say having a Bible tucked away on a shelf or a little model of cool dude Jesus giving a thumbs up (for example) in a window sill and lecturing someone when they are seeking a service about their religion. And the thing about Facebook posts is that you can hide them. If you don't like it, you can choose to ignore it. Actually, no. I haven't even heard of it in the UK. I have heard of a political group using MA based training to draw people in here in the UK, but that was one or two isolated occasions only.
If wrydolphin or any mod want to pick me up on what I wrote as being off-topic then they can fill their boots and they will be told exactly WHY it was on topic However that will not happen because it WAS on topic and even Stevie Wonder can see that. The reason you have sand in your nethers about it is because it shows inherent hypocrisy in your worldview. It was also one small part of an entire post yet you throw a hissy fit on that and ignore the rest.
If you have conviction in your beliefs why give a damn what anyone else thinks ? If you have a big chip on your shoulder people are going to try and knock it off.
mdgee, I'd be interested in hearing the answers to Lemonsloth's questions, as well. As for the question posed by aaradia: I've only ever heard of Christian groups using MA as a route to conversion (or at least as some sort of tool), ans only in isolated cases. As for MAs with some overt religious/spiritual overtones, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned systema yet. My own chosen MA of capoeira has a lot of spiritual overtones (especially in capoeira angola). Mestres will speak openly of ancestors and orishas (deities/forces of nature) and patuas (protective amulets) and corpo fechado ('closing' the body to physical or spiritual harm--usually through patuas). A number of mestres and students are practitioners of candomble (though some are Christian). Though capoeira and candomble have not always been historically linked the way that they sem to be now, historians (James Sweet in particular) have found that the inversions in capoeira are linked to old Central African spiritual beliefs about drawing power from ancestors (sorry theory about doing handstands while one's hands were bound). So, as you can see, there are a number of spiritual aspects to capoeira that occasionally (but only occasionally, in my experience) get overtly brought up in class discussion (though not in a manner meant to convert anyone). I am an atheist, but none of that discussion ever bothers me, because that line of trying to convert me or anyone else is never crossed--no matter how much any of the spiritual practices are mentioned. As for the veganism thing, it seemed a way to link what you're passionate about to the ideas espoused by your teacher on his facebook page. True, you do not attempt to directly convert people here (though what might telling people that eating meat will give them cancer be an attempt at?), but you do have the fact that you are vegan in your signature, which will accompany every post that you ever make here on MAP. Some might take offense to that just as you took offense to your teacher's post. I am vegan. Have been for nearly 20 years. I'd say that most here on MAP don't know that (well, I guess a few more have found out just now ). Yet you've made your dietary choice nearly as political as the instructor (at least it seems to me as of now. If you answer Lemonsloth's questions, perhaps I will have a clearer understanding of what lines have been crossed). Something to think about, perhaps.
I'm kind of interested too , but , I'm far more interested in mdgee explaining the apparent contradiction in his op (emphasis mine) and his statements later in the thread (again emphasis my own) How can you not believe in a deity and consider yourself Jewish ? I mean , you even fell out with a guy about it.
Being jewish is an ethnicity and a religion. my friend is an atheist but his mother is an Ashkenazi Jews so he is jewish by ethnicity but does not believe in judaism its actually under british law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group
If I were driving through the mountains of Tennessee and my passenger turned and said to me "eternity was a long time to be separated" I'd freak out as well. Wow! Lon Milo DuQuette - no, they were no where near that ranking in the OTO to be afforded such privilege as lectures by DuQuette, lol.
Agreed, which is why I repeatedly clarified very specifically what I was talking about in my posts. The facebooik thing. Well, here is where your earlier questions matter. If one is getting a religious meme or message from an official school Facebook post, I would object to that. But if one happens to be personal facebook friends with an unofficially linked instructor on their personal page, that is a different matter. Facebook as a way for the business of my school to pass along information about a school should not be used to promote a religious agenda. So for example- my Sifu has a friends page that is titled "Tai Sifu name". It is a page all about him in his capacity of being head of my school. He has also mentioned he might make a personal page for communicating with friends. One is representing the school officially- the other one (if he ever does it) would not. Again, at this point, I should mention that my school's no fraternization policy does not allow for instructors personal- non school related- accounts to befriend a student. See? It avoids this sort of issue. I imagine when one goes to a smaller informal sort of teaching, the lines between personal and instructor can be blurred more easily. But one's business roll and personal one should be clear when running a business- even if one fraternizes with students- one should take the time to clarify what is what. Also, a husband and wife team of students at my school are VERY DEVOUTLY Christian. It only comes up occassionaly at my school. Like when we all went to a restaurant after tournament and they took time to pray before eating. They didn't ask anyone else to do it. They post all sorts of "Jesus" stuff on their facebook page. And yeah, I just ignore it. If they pushed it on me at the school, I would probably avoid them, but they don't. It just comes up occassionaly. Like "Where is Mrs. ?" " Oh, she has Church Choir tonight." They don't prosletyze. And they are awesome dedicated students. There was another student. A teen with a severe disability. He obsessed on Christian themed discussion at the school. He would come up and interject himself in conversation and start adding religion. I just would say something polite to let him know that wasn't the topic, or that it wasn't my belief and walk away. I learned to walk away as I saw him approach after awhile. He isn't there anymore.
:topic: It was lessons, but the guy is very informal. It felt like a friendly get together even when he was more or less lecturing. No airs of his role or rank. We all sat around his living room on the floors and couches and chairs. He is VERY nice and knowledgeable and so is his wife. I only went for a year or so-give or take a few months. It was a commute to where he lived and my work schedule changed to a night shift on the day he did this. It was a very good experience though. I am grateful for having had it.
It's completely up to the people running the school. If they want to make religion a big part of, or a requirement of, membership, then you either agree with it or you don't go. Going to a school that does something you don't agree with has a very simple answer: don't go.
