Pronating the hand

Discussion in 'Boxing' started by Sketco, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Do you guys find it absolutely necessary to pronate the hand when punching?
    Bas Rutten always shows his punches with only a very slight turn. For wing chun doing the chung choi the hand is vertical.

    I'd like to transfer to doing punches more vertical but having built up the habit over many years I find when I box, unless I consciously make an effort not to, I pronate the hand.

    The vertical punches tend to slip through people's guards easier when using mma gloves but do you guys think it's worth the work to change my boxing punches to a vertical fist?
     
  2. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Turning the hand just encourages more hip commitment and a tighter guard. It makes it easier to keep your shoulder where it ought to be.
    It feels a lot better to me on straights but as long as you're covering with your shoulder during the punch and rolling your hips like you should, I don't think it really matters.

    At one time it made it easier to miss on long punches without hurting my elbow but now I don't think it makes a difference for me.
     
  3. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    This is one thing I'm having to get used to and keep getting corrected on. Making sure I try to make contact with the strong knuckles while doing it also makes it a little bit more difficult for me. I just started feeling like I have a solid jab the other day between the mechanics of the punch and my footwork and I started tagging the bag pretty hard and after about 50 (I was purely doing bag work and working on the jab) good ones when it started clicking I hit the bag good but hit my two weaker knuckles and it hurt like hell on my hand. Luckily I didn't seriously hurt it, but I stopped trying to focus on twisting my jab so much and didn't find it to have too much of an effect on my jab being solid.


    As Kurtka pointed out, it does help in making sure your shoulder is guarding your chin, and for me is this especially true with my cross. The jab and cross are the only punches I focus on this. Some people have told me to do it with the hooks as well but I only find it helpful if I'm trying to punch somebody when they duck, so it has a little bit of a downward angle. It also hurts my shoulders if it's not at that downward angle.

    I'm a complete novice, so my speculation on experience is about as good as an internet warriors so it may not be the best : P.
     
  4. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Realistically it makes no difference the positioning of your hand so long as your hand is tight and you're hitting where you want to hit with. Depending on where you want your punch to land (first two knuckles or last three) is typically why people go with either a horizontal or vertical fist. I've seen many fractured knuckles of the pinky finger in my day enough that the vertical fist is not that appealing to me hence why I tend to stick with the horizontal fist. For my makiwara work I've found a 45 degree angle is best for me for my punches but I still tend to go with the horizontal for now when working the bag/mitts or sparring.
     
  5. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    The difference between a vert fist and horizontal fist with MMA gloves on is so minimal as to be entirely unimportant. The ability to add snap and torque to the punch by recruiting from the legs on up is more important in my estimation. The whole kinetic chain from the ground up is of primary importance.

    99% of the time I see vids of people who go on about vert fist punching... they have terrible technique... and really should worry more about footwork and a truckload of other basics before trying to go all exotic and vertical.
     
  6. 6footgeek

    6footgeek Meow

    personally i tend to use vertical fist on hooks, because i tend to catch my ring and pinky if i do a hook with a horizontal fist. but i try to use a horizontal one on the bag and pads.

    does it really matter though? I mean, since its easier for me to hook with a vertical fist, should i try to forcibly change it?
     
  7. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I sometimes throw a "Piston" jab, which is what you would call a version of the WC punch. (arm only vertical fist) More or a distraction so as to build it to something else. But as what slip says...so little difference its not noticable.
     
  8. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Amen to the bold bit.. Although with the smaller gloves I find the vertical punches tend to slip through tighter guards more easily because there's about an inch less of hand on the horizontal plane trying to pass through.

    I think since I can do both I'll just stick with both. Gives me a little more variety to work with and I can switch at will from boxing with a probated to a vertical fist.

    And 6footgeek I hook with the vertical fist regardless.
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Looking at power generation methods, the amount of rotation (e.g. vertical or horizontal fist) can be a factor in how much power you can generate with your punch.

    Four standard methods that are combined in different ways to generate power in a punch:

    1. Falling step (using the force of a step forward combined with gravity)
    2. Leaning
    3. Torso twist/rotation
    4. Leg and hip

    (note that any of the above can include a weight shift as part of the power generation and footwork)

    The horizontal fist is not completely palm facing down, it can rotate more (as in an over hand right) or rotate a little less as in the way I throw a cross. If horizontal fist is 90 degree rotation, then I might rotate 60 degrees on my cross and 120 degrees on my overhand right/left. This rotation allows for gaining power from leaning when striking with the two big knuckles. Don't think of it as leaning into a punch, think of it as striking down at the target. I like to think I'm striking down at 30 degrees into the target. In order to do this, I keep my hips back.

    Another method, leg and hip power, such as when using an uppercut or shovel hook, basically is using the power of the legs to lift and driving the hip forward. You may find that the palm facing up slightly or towards you helps to generate power using this method.

    The verical fist punch is in between. You can, as Bas seem to do with a straight vertical punch, start with leg and hip power, driving the punch up and then bringing the hips back, hit downwards in through the target.

    So to me, the difference is whether I'm striking down into the target or up into the target as to which way my fist rotates and how much rotation I use.

    For falling step and torso twist power, these both represent power converted horizontally towards the target. Falling step is more linear and torso twist a more circular punch, but the rotation of the fist does not seem to factor in as much for generating power, so other considerations such as range and which other method of power generation is used. Combining falling step with leaning power, I prefer "horizontal" fist with less rotation. Combining falling step with leaning and with torso twisting, I prefer more rotation as in an overhand right. Combining torso twisting with leg and hip power, as in a shovel hook, a slight rotation with palm up.

    These all are hitting with the two big knuckles. If you hit with the three smaller knuckles, there will be less need for rotation, and so a vertical fist makes more sense. Also, if hitting with the hammer fist strike (not legal in boxing) or open hand strikes, rotation of the fist may not make as much sense.

    IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012

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