You called users out to talk about other styles, and now it was meant as an explanation only for your style? Make up you mind Ronald I don't need to visit you to see that Bukti Negara isn't something unique.
The topic reads Bukti Negara, but yes please do write Dylan9d. What styles did you incorporate in your Ilmu Buka.
Your own words, don't start then with "the topic reads Bukti Negara". Like I said Ronald make up your mind, and I wasn't even talking about one style but styles in general
Dylan9d I don't want to play your word games. If you have an issue with our style you are again most welcome to come over, but from what I recon probably not. You are convinced most styles have same tactics and principles, I say we have some different ones (and yes some are the same). And we can back it up as well, as long as you are willing to put in the time. You visited one training, barely, so I guess that's not your cup of tea which is fine. Now come share some info on your own style and why it's not unique so we can have a sensible discussion.
Instead of Bukti Negara lessons you should invest in some reading lessons. It doesn't revolve around your style because I was speaking about martial arts in general, so no I don't have an issue with your style. And they aren't word games my quote was something you wrote in your original post. I'm not sharing anything with someone that reads stuff only half. Good luck with BN.
Hi Glenn, what a nice surprise. Well one of the misconceptions is exactly that what our friend Dylan9d illustrated... people see some movements, some sweeps and unbalancing movements and think, it's all the same. A reason why a lot of people in the past combined Bukti Negara, with a lot of other styles, 'to fill in the gaps'. The majority of people coming from the Inosanto line of JKD for instance use bukti negara elements but only some elements, not the system. It's like encorporating a muay thai lowkick into Wing Chun...principles differ. With the current variation of Bukti Negara a lot of pukulan was re-introduced from it's origins (Serak) so there is no need to use boxing as a way of hitting in the style. The type of hitting fits seemlessly into Bukti Negara, whilst boxing uses a different approach in how to punch. So, from the past people see Bukti Negara and think: ah the style with the sweeps Sapu and Beset. Well no, Bukti Negara is a complete system with all the elements tightly knit together. The hard part is to get used to the way of moving. In a way to me it's a bit like Internal Chinese Styles like Xing Yi or Bagua. First you have to learn the core/basics properly and yes that part takes longer than with other styles. Learning whole body movement is quite hard and even boring. Anyway Glenn, i guess you already know this, you have been told this before several times, so i'm not sure what your real reason for this question is, but let's stay optimistic and assume you have genuine interest in this. Any other discussion to derail this thread i won't buy into.
Yes you are right I DO already know that. I have had a little more experience of BN than Dylan9d. I thought it would be interesting to hear the misconceptions that others have, or that you think others have. You see MY “misconceptions” are things like the Badui lineage, the Gendang fights which I understand didn’t happen, and so on.. the early history, similar to the history spouted by a brother is replete with inaccuracies. One thing I have seen with my limited exposure to BN, is how much of it is IN other styles. As you say “ A reason why a lot of people in the past combined Bukti Negara, with a lot of other styles, 'to fill in the gaps'.” If they haven’t been taught the angles and the reasoning behind the mechanics then BN will have a lot of answers for many Indonesian styles.. We, you I and whats left of BN Europe, have our issues, based, not as you would hear, on my issues, but on your teacher’s issues and mistakes. The seeming paranoia of the new BN group seems to be to accept any praises and denigrate any criticism as coming form people who don’t know the system. There are a lot of contradictory statements coming out of BN, sadly with a hint of kool-aid. You have many people that as you say have done some JKD silat and think they know silat or BN. In the early days BN was promoted as the style that focused more on sapu/ beset than any other style so it isn’t a misconception now, but a change maybe away from its original teachings? My reason for posting WAS genuine, and you are right- I have been told a lot of this before. I have never had much interest in the slanging matches that BN has had. You know full well I stood shoulder to shoulder with Walter when he took a lot of flak, and I took a lot of personal attacks and insultsfor doing that as well when not many others stepped up.. so be a little more accepting of the people who have had your back.
Well Glenn, i really don't like politics, sadly you still want to get back to it by discussing it. Don't worry about it, it's not your style so why keep digging up things? Want to talk about techniques or principles? Go ahead. Politics? Rather not, and it's just a way of derailing the thread. The principles, tactics and techniques in the current Bukti Negara is crystal clear as has been laid out by the combination of the late Pendekar Paul de Thouars and Guru Dolf de Vries. So 'away from its original teaching'? Not at all, the signatures of several authentic Pukulan teachers are there to prove it. Is it different from the original Bukti Negara in the 80's, yes, the flavour is different but the principles stay the same. Sadly a lot of people read that as 'totally changing the art', but that says more about themselves then about the change. When i was talking about misconceptions i was talking about the content of the art, not some stupid politics issues, but since some people just can't let go of the politics we are doomed to explain time and time again. As goes for a lot of martial arts by the way. The art is solid, the lineage is solid, you don't like some characters, too bad, but that's personal. We are open for everyone to see and meet. In a lot of martial arts there are a lot of (big) ego's, that is quite common, and sorry Glenn, you and I also have an ego, that's what also makes us human. And quite often these ego's clash. Too bad but such is life. I've moved on, i hope you will too. In the end for me it's about if a style works or not, and that it helps me develop as a person. It does for me.
I guess I did and I guess it is. Why would i share anything with someone that pretends hes open minded but in reality is here only to gloat. I even think the mod's might as well close this topic because it isn't going anywere good.
Again guys, to repeat myself, talk about the content, not the politics. There is already too much of that.
"Anyway Glenn, i guess you already know this, you have been told this before several times, so i'm not sure what your real reason for this question is, but let's stay optimistic and assume you have genuine interest in this. Any other discussion to derail this thread i won't buy into." You say you don’t like politics, but then you start with this? You see the contradictions I hope? We all have an ego, different to being egotistical. But a common trait in silat is to overcome the arrogance and big ego. There is also no need to be condescending or arrogant which sadly seems to be a trademark now of BN Europe. My short time with Bukti taught me a lot, and reminded me what I expect in people that teach me.. humility, honour, respect, loyalty, and dignity. Since I didn’t find that in BN, as I have in Lincah and Pukulan Madura I have continued my journey without it. Interestingly I have done Pukulan Madura for 25 year and you made great efforts to show your Pukulan background and lineage as being the same as BN. But despite your claims, you are not the only people teaching Pa Flohrs style. The flavour of BN you sell is lacking in important character traits- how you deal with people- technical, but incomplete as a style of silat. You derail your own debate by raising these issues and you will I know continue to try to prove you are right in everything you say, and everyone else knows so little. Like I say, the arrogance of BN Europe is a shining example of what to avoid in Silat. “Seni without silat is pointless; silat without seni is just fighting”.
Glenn, I expected more restraint from you, especially with your titles. But sadly not the case. All personal issues that you like to drag out in the open. I tried 4 or 5 times now in this thread to stear away from your issues, but sadly you want this to happen. This says more about you than about me Glenn. Too bad, we used to have some nice talks, now suddenly everyone is the bad guy in BN Europe. Let it go, choose your own path, we do as well. The guys who i train with around europe, i will mention them that we are 'arrogant, egotistical, incomplete' etc.. and see how they will react.Well i guess i already now the answer to that. The fact that we say that our Principles and tactics are different, is not meant to be arrogant. I wrote different, not better. You made that assumption. And yes, a lot is misunderstood on the basics of this beautiful art. That's not arrogant, that is from realising after 13 years my basics of the system still have to be improved and go even deeper then i thought. I will end with that, so you can go on with your insults. It's not the first time, nor will it be the last.
Glenn, Better is to stop trying putting that mirror in front of Ronald, his arrogance blinds him for everything anyone else says. I tried to explain my point, that every martial art shares common knowledge but he still thinks that I'm attacking his art. He asks if people want to write about their style but now start stating the topics name. He asks if we don't want to address the politics but in the meantime he sends me pm's about Facebook groups etc. Ronald is one big contradiction. Also he talks condescending about me doing a kuda kuda really? If that is the representation of Bukti Negara then I'm glad I never made it past one lesson.
Better is to stop trying putting that mirror in front of Ronald, his arrogance blinds him for everything anyone else says. I tried to explain my point, that every martial art shares common knowledge but he still thinks that I'm attacking his art. >> ... if you would say that every martial art shares common knowledge, than i would instantly agree, however that is not exactly what you wrote did you? He asks if people want to write about their style but now start stating the topics name. >> I haven't seen you write anything about your style, neither did Glenn. It was more an opportunity to spill some personal dirt over here. So unbecoming of a Guru or Maha Guru. He asks if we don't want to address the politics but in the meantime he sends me pm's about Facebook groups etc. >> Well well you guys keep dragging me back in huh. If i wanted a discussion about politics i would call it like that. Talking about another style instead of practicing is always easy. Ronald is one big contradiction. >> .... Also he talks condescending about me doing a kuda kuda really? >> Well as i mentioned you privately you have a big mouth, but when meeting face 2 face, that big mouth was gone, all that was left was a guy who was shopping around for another style,finding a quick fix, and Bukti Negara that was too much hard work on the basics for you yes. And yes you could barely manage a proper kuda kuda for a little while... so yes your mouth didn't match your skills of the basics. If that is the representation of Bukti Negara then I'm glad I never made it past one lesson. >> Pfff, you know what, i'm not gonna respond anymore to children, or should i call you Guru Ludwig now? hahahah.
Ronald I stand behind my words and face 2 face you didn't had such big words either, when I visited Walter I went there on his invitation, and it's not very respectfull to mouth someone off in his own home and be open minded about system he teaches. Now that beeing sad, let's get to the point, if I would see you in real life I would still feel the same about you, that you are an arrogant child, and then what? What do you want to do about that then? FYI I don't have that much with titles, what's yours these days? Kepala Regu or Pelatih Madya? Both don't impress me
Well Ludwig, you know the way to Breda. I'm there plenty of times in the week. Bring some 'Spekkoek' while you are at it. We can talk like adults, children, or otherwise.
Like i said Ronald, Bukti Negara isn't worth my time so aren't arrogant people, but if you want some lessons you can always train with us.
OK I am not a mod, but am a long time member and resident curmudgeon so here is some advice for all of you.... Wind your necks in This thread is now going nowhere and it would but a pity to see you banned as a result of an online hissy fit
