MMA vs Taiji Fight

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by icefield, May 4, 2017.

  1. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Got any links Matt?

    You must have got information from somewhere.
     
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    No, I'm only disagreeing because I don't think your theory matches the evidence. It's not personal either, you have a theory and I'm questioning it, that's all. Telling me to talk to someone who didn't even assert the things that you are with his theory wouldn't get me very far. Why are you completely unable to explain even the basic things about these universal ways of moving and fighting?

    Not sure why you think I would disagree with anything you say, since I have agreed with you in the past.
     
  3. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    True. But I don't think that guard is a TRADITIONAL move in any of the known Traditional styles. Or when he says it is done by CMA people, who - outside of himself and his circle of people - do it? I don't think it is a good example of moves TCMA people do vs MMA people at all as I don't think hardly anyone does that move. And when he said CMA, in the context of the conversation, I thought he meant TCMA people.

    It isn't in CLF, at least I haven't seen it in 13 years. Nor have I seen it in watching clips of Hung Gar, WC, Mantis styles, etc.

    I think it is a move he or his friends developed. I could be wrong.

    I am waiting for him to clarify for me.
     
  4. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    There is a move, somewhat similar, where the hands are held out pressed together with the arms out straight. The arms are thrust forward to divert a kick or punch. I do know that it is present in some sil lum forms. Not identical to YKW's rhino guard but I can see how he might have looked at it at some point.

    LFD
     
  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The idea of 'rhino guard" original came from a kid's game. When I was 7 years old in elementary school, we had sword fight game. You use your right arm as a sword. If your right arm can touch on your opponent's body, your opponent is dead. The game started with 2 groups of equal players. After all the players in one team had been killed, the game was over.

    There was a boy who liked to hold his right arm straight toward his opponent's chest. With no defense, he just ran toward his opponent like a mad boy. No matter how his opponent might move his arm as sword and tried to cut on his body, his "straight arm" always hit on his opponent's chest first. He had won many games that way. That was the original idea of the "rhino guard".

    During the later years, it was enhanced by the

    - SC "double spears" strategy that you keep both arm stiff forward and circle inward, and

    [​IMG]

    - WC "Tan Da" and "center line" theory that you use left Tan Shou and right punch and protect your center from inside out.

    [​IMG]

    The principle are:

    - If you put your fists near your opponent's head instead of near your own head, you don't give him enough space to generate his fast and powerful punch.
    - If you put your arms in your opponent's striking path (and hide your head behind it), for your opponent's punch to land on your head, his fist has to meet with your extended arms first.
    - If your opponent tries to use body shot on you, his head will be exposed for your attack.

    The "rhino guard" strategy is mainly used by a wrestler who doesn't want to train any striking skill but have to deal with punches. You try to move your

    - left arm between your opponent's right arm and his head.
    - right arm between your opponent's left arm and his head.

    you than apply a clinch and apply your wrestling skill from there.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-V4khLIztE&feature=youtu.be

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I may not deserve all the credit. The "big fist" had been used in 武松脱铐拳 (Wu Son Tou Kao Quan). I believe it's the 白猿通背拳 (long arm white ape style). It was designed to fight when you have handcuff on.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jI3yFceDdQ&feature=youtu.be

    [​IMG]

    http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=237

    武松脱铐拳相传为明清时的武术家依据小说《水浒传》中“武松大闹飞云浦”的故事情节,并通过形象思维,模仿武松在披枷戴铐的情况下,运用武术的攻防技术,战胜敌人的形象而编创的拳术套路。这个套路里共有十六种手法,六种腿法,并运用肩、肘、胯多种技击方法。分为带铐、搏斗、磕铐、脱铐、取胜等七个层次,结构清晰,技法独特,突出肘法。

    Wu Song handcuffed fist for the Ming and Qing Dynasties martial arts based on the novel "Water Margin" in the "Wu Song fog Feiyun Pu" storyline, and through the image of thinking, imitating Wu Song in the case of wiping handcuffs, the use of martial arts Offensive and defensive technology, the image of the enemy and the creation of the boxing routine. This routine has a total of six kinds of practices, six leg method, and the use of shoulder, elbow, hip a variety of martial arts methods. Divided into handcuffs, wrestling, knock handcuffs, handcuffs, win and other seven levels, clear structure, unique technology, highlight the elbow method.

    Here are some similar approach used as "rhino guard". It's a common strategy used by wrestler to use your

    - right hand to push back on your opponent's left shoulder.
    - left hand to push back on your opponent's right shoulder.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-0iNT674Dc&feature=youtu.be

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktH3EIUsIsc&feature=youtu.be

    IMO, the advantage of the "rhino guard" is you don't allow your opponent's punch to come in between your arms. You only allow your opponent's punch to come on the right or left side of your arms. This will force your opponent to separate his arms apart so your "rhino guard" can drill through between his arms.

    [​IMG]

    The "crazy monkey" strategy is also similar except your hands are close to your own head than close to your opponent's head.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qguQfn0QtBs&feature=youtu.be

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=802cBz8Wzic&feature=youtu.be
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  7. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Well,stop by the house some time and we'll let you peruse the TC section of the library,including the reprints of the old books from the earlier half of the 20th century.

    As to apps for that stepping-Knees,of course,+ leg parries,leg hooks,entering obstructions,steps(rather than kicks)onto opponents knee/hip/thigh,......und to remember,"Every step is a kick,every kick is a step".

    Anyway,use your imagination and see if you can insert these in some wise into your apps.Just for thought food.

    Again,the form is training-it's not like one would be just stepping that high in combat.Try doing your long form this way,let me know how balance,relaxation, & maintaining your level head goes.Keep that supporting leg bent!

    Of course it becomes obvious if one does Yang solo form the way it should be done,at least by healthy people who aren't too aged-as deep as a Fu Hok Hung form.One can't help but then bring the knee that high in relation to the torso.

    We have an execution like that in the Fu Hok form,but it's a straightforward thrust with the hands in a praying formation (palms together w/fingers pointing forward).The forearms are what really do the work.Also used for balance attacks and offensive things to make opponent's neck "uncomfortable".Like an entering move while parrying opponent's hand strike w/forearm & continuing into his head,neck,etc.Also used in at least one of the Silat systems I was exposed to.But it's not a guard.

    Wu Song doesn't use such a guard in that form.Simply executes defensive/offensive techniques.

    The Keysi guys and Crazy Monkey are not trad CMAs,so utility or lack thereof is not a factor in the discussion.The question about your Rhino was is it an actual trad CMA thing common to trad CMA folks.Answer is no.

    Oh,and Mr. W., that has to be the most impressive/scary S&M phallic image I've ever seen on MAP!
     
  8. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Well, thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it. We have a lot of those applications, but I think two things are going on here. :hat:
    One is that we teach them with crane stances or stepping after them, but not in general stepping in moves as often as I see in some forms on youtube. Sure, I see how that could be applied in higher stepping in other moves now that you mention it.
    Also, that other applications, like leg hooks, we do them, but we do them closer to the ground more often than not. One can certainly move into an opponents leg, thigh, knee without having to step high to do it. Of course adaptions can always be made for a situation if need be. For example: Sure, you can add a kick to any step, but we don't train every step like it is about to be a kick.

    Also, not sure why you started bringing up doing forms as low as possible. However, that is what we are taught as well. Lower stances does not mean one has to bring the leg up high when stepping though.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Last edited: May 11, 2017
  10. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Yeah, to be fair to YKW he's right that the position in the exact same use exists in CMA. It exists in Wing Chun at the end of biu jee in what is often referred to as the sam bai fut, where its use is generally taught as an emergency cover rather than as a primary technique.
     
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Going off track a little....

    One thing that bothers me about the losing guy saying "I could have hit him but didn't want to kill him" is how stupidly binary that makes his supposed art or skills look.

    It makes his only choices "get beaten up" or "kill the other guy".
    Which means either him or the art he's promoting are rubbish. No force continuum, no less than lethal tactics, nothing that can be drilled in an alive manner, etc, etc. Ultimately (Grand Ultimately? :) ) it means he and his art have no self defence value because the only two options available are unacceptable from a self defence perspective.
    In a self defence situation I don't want to get beaten up and nor do I want to kill the other guy. They are literally 2 of the 3 worst outcomes in a self defence situation (the worst one being that I get killed...which arguably is just an extension of getting beaten up).

    I mean obviously the "I could have hit him but didn't want to kill him" is ridiculous after-the-fact excuse making designed to try and save face and reputation but even if it was true it doesn't work.
     
  12. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    My heart sank when I saw this video.

    My taijiquan training thought that maybe, just maybe the taiji guy would be able to ward off the attack and apply a Chin Na joint lock on the MMA guy and pin him to a vertical surface, (because even going down to the ground would have been have just awful...)

    My Boxing training just told me the MMA guy would just blast through whatever parrying and warding actions were made and it would end as a beat down in a corner.

    Predictable.

    Doubtless this will have socio/political consequences, or Taijiquan practitioners will claim that BJJ style ground fighting was already known in ancient china and if you look just carefully you can see a Kimura in the (insert ancient form) and you will get San Shou practitioners doing Ancient Tai Chi groundfighting

    or Something.
     
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  14. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

  15. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    Just like we see multiple times with people buying into cults, fascist political parties and other organisations, he's been brainwashed, by others and himself.

    To quote the late Koyo:

    You do not seek out BS ..you have to be fed it..But it is up to you if you swallow it.

    Now, I have spent many years practicing tai chi, but I am under no illusion that I could solely use this in a fight.

    Then the excuses flow in once they are defeated, their ego is too big. I wonder if they will ever accept what happened.
     
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    How to use Taiji only (without mixing any other CMA systems) to become a good Taiji fighter? Is it possible? IMO, it's possible. Taiji has all the basic striking tools. It can be an effective striking system if train properly. Does Taiji has all the wrestling tools? May be not. But you don't have to learn 300 throws to be a wrestler. If you can master "cloud hand - body control", you can use it to defeat your opponent over and over.

    IMO, the issue is the students. Taiji attracts a special kind of students. When those students become teachers, they attract a special kind of students again. If you don't have any students who are willing to test the Taiji skill that you taught them to deal with people from other MA systems, it will be very difficult to develop reputation for your Taiji system as a "fighting art".
     
  17. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    Botta, don't let your heart sink over that guy!???

    Big surprise, a TC guy (who created his own style) and never fought / sparred before gets beat by overconfident aggression. That's a no brainer.

    It would be like a fencer who is self taught in parries and attacking but had NEVER had an actual bout.

    Of course it's the man the the styles.
     
  18. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    Just been reading up a bit more on the whole debacle. Apparently Wei Lei was on TV showing a pigeon was unable to fly off his palm because of his chi force (pigeon was cleverly duct taped to palm instead).

    Also the MMA guy initially said that 10% tai-chi masters had some martial arts skill and the other 90% were fakers, but was quite measured in his estimation of tai chi. But he became increasingly more outspoken as the the whole bandwagon progressed and then claimed 99% were fakes along with many other assertions that were bound to offend.

    I don't think anyone particularly covered themselves in glory.

    ***edit***

    also post match interview which gives a bit of background to the whole thing

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQxxt0H8DJM
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  19. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    My point was that if you're in truly deep stances,when the support knee is at almost 90 degrees when you step the knee of the stepping leg is going to have be almost waist high-if not you'll be dragging the foot.

    For whatever reasons Yang,C-f left that relationship/method in even after he raised the depth of his postures over the years.Anyway,no one expects one to step like that in combat,unless there is a specific purpose,like treading down on opponent's knee.Again,form is for training.But try doing your whole long form this way sometime just for fun.See how your balance feels,and pay close attention to not rising on the support leg.

    I'm not saying this method is necessary.

    Don't forget that over the decades other have simplified Yang,C-f's form further than he did.Things such as stepping w/out the raised knee,or sitting the weight back on one leg before turning the other leg out-(something which both Hu and Cheng do,at least in public)- are both commonly seen things in Yang,C-f descended solo forms but were not ways he did it-at least in his books.
    Yes,any of us can cover,but that isn't the same as a "ready" position guard,at distance.I can raise my forearm up w/elbow bent to shield against a hook but I don't see people standing several feet away from an opponent in such a position,let alone w/both arms in that configuration.
    Outside of the lack of groundwork I don't see why not.People do.

    Of course if people just do solo and 2 person forms,push hands,weapon forms,etc, don't know rudimentary pugilistic basics nor spend time in unrehearsed "playing" w/others they shouldn't expect much.

    Well here's a click on the non-existent Thank You button from me,Subatai!
     
  20. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Isn't that exactly how John is using his guard though, in the videos he has posted before it's not a Stance he uses to throw techniques from, it's a guard he uses to crash in and get the clinch whilst deflecting strikes, just as how it is used in wing chun, fu hok and the shaolin forms mentioned, only difference seems to be whilst it is either a small part of their art or an emergency recovery position John is using it as a main part of his art in order to get into his preferred range. The position or a similar one can be found in other classical arts it appears so it is a classical move, wether its a guard or meant for another reason is surely in the eye of the beholder.
     

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