According to that old man, "training accidents" do happen... You never know if you can cut it unless you've been there. Same with NBA and street b-ball. Or "competition" and a life-or-death struggle. You might get an wee bit of taste but not the whole meal. And some may have stuffed themselves too fast, not knowing the food's too hot for them. He showed us the bullet scar of that kind of accident and the tags of the "accident victims" which he carries as a memento. And besides, being harrassed for more than a couple of months before being sent to the hostile jungles can be a heavy burden not anyone can carry. Oh, the joys of having an insurgent population... :yeleyes:
Muay boran became the sport of muay thai officially in the 1930's when they banned certain techniques or when they became impractical (because of gloves and rule changes e.g. stuff from the wai kru) and started competitions between regional styles.
I saw the shoulder dislocation as I watched that fight- Guess what- the Korean Zombie didn't die! Guess what else? I know Shogun brutalized people too in his Pride days- but hasn't killed anyone. The pregnant analogy is silly and doesn't work in this scenario. There ARE rules for fighter safety- that would be a half pregnant sort of thing. I don't believe any fighter out there literally is trying to KILL his opponent. Well, maybe one or two psychologically ill people but basically- no. No you can't drop on your knees- but you DO have rounds with rest breaks. And even legal strikes cause controversy in the sport because some people feel it is poor sportmanship to be potentially purposfully trying to really hurt your opponent in certain ways. Back of the head controversies, 12-6 elbows, downed opponent kicks, Jones instep leg lift to the opponents knees- these things are all discussed with controversy- because of issues of sportsmanship and the fact that there IS a line to be crosed in MMA. A line that shouldn't exist when fighting for ones life literally. Again- if one was to use your analogy- these controveries would be the equivalent of being half pregnant. Unarmed street conflict is not the same as MMA sanctioned fights. Straw man there. I do agree with Philosopraptor talking about adreneline not knowing the difference- which is why I said I got when Chadderz said it FEELS like a life or death situation. But the fact is- it is not. It is probably one of the closest ways to get that feeling without being in a life or death fight, but one does not need to exaggerate the significance of MMA fighting to understand it is a valuable way of learning to fight. The confusing part for me is that later in your post you argue it isn't the same as soldiers fighting- which is basically my point.
Pretty cool thread but It lost me about ten osts ago lols. Well I wanted to talk here because Im from a Hybrid system and have studied hybrid systems on and off for several years so I feel like I have a little experience here. Theres a huge understanding gap between Tma guys and mma guys, I wont be able to bridge that gap in one post but I wish that I could. Heres what I will tell you, the word mma or the phrase mixed martial arts covers at least three martial arts style concepts that I can think of so Im going to list them here ok. 1. mma means the stuff you see on t.v. these days-pride,K1 and ufc to name the big three leagues. 2.mma means training in two seperate tma and useing them together i.e. Kung fu/greco wrestleing!!!whatever. 3. mma means training in one system that combines two or more systems into one, like kajukenbo or something like that. Thing is what is it that really seperates the first meaning from the second??? Well I will attempt to talk about that here. I believe its the set of training methods and conditions in which they are trained and second I believe it is the participants that make a difference. I could go on but how about if some one else takes the slack up for me.
This isn't true either :evil: You seem to be arguing that Muay Boran is the oldest of all the well known Asian boxing arts. What is your source for that because it seems historically inaccurate. If we compare ancient Siamese vs Chinese culture for example I don't think it makes sense. Chinese culture is much older than Thai culture and has records of martial arts and warfare going back thousands of years prior to the Siamese empires.
In all fairness, the Chinese were reknowned for written records. So the existence of such records isn't surprising. It doesn't necessarily mean that the Siamese had no equivalent in the same timeframe. I'm not arguing that Muay Boran is older. Honestly, it seems like a daft thing to argue about from either side. But purely as a critical thinking exercise...
It takes far more effort being able to kick and punch at the required level, then to master basic standing grappling. I don't find it equivalent in reverse at all. To the contrary. That's why striking prevails. Some strikers have found themselves quite good at groundfighting, and wanted to implement it. But that's a hole nother story. Pride fighting only allowed open palm strikes to the head -- And someone here claimed it was the closest to reality/street? Give me a break.
As a kickboxer, I have to say - I'm sorry, what?!?! How did you come to that conclusion? 1) Grappling is incredibly complex. 2) You're comparing apples and oranges. 3) Where did you get the "striking prevails" bit from?
I'm not opposed to it realistically. Evolution of arts and what-not has pretty much always come from someone pushing the boundaries as far as I know, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that in principle. As long as the person who takes the class actually has some decent instruction/tuition in those arts he's mashing together.
I have no issue with using and studying different arts, I used taekwondo a lot when sparring previously in many different arts just as just one example, there is definitely a link that can be used between all martial arts as stated, the body can only do the same things so many ways, the way I look at it myself, not right or wrong etc, purely my own way of thinking, is that if I was to see someone offering their 'own style' which was a blend of karate and kung fu for example, I always think that I would prefer to find out what the teacher had studied specifically to create his/her new style and study those myself individually as the thins they took as 'useful' etc might differ from mine and what we would be both take away from different arts and mixing them may look totally different asan end result. I just wouldn't want to assume that they have taken the 'best' from everything as it's just not that black and white. Again no idea where the tmw vs MMA sprang from but I'm open to it as it helps me definitely to see into both more and if you don't have an open mind then what's the point?
Hands up chin down, move your head side to side then shoot. Simples. And it's easy the other way too. Sprawl and move off, or pummel and push. " striking prevails" lol! Take it from someone who does both; it is pretty easy to say it either way.
The tma vs mma debate is at the heart of the question you asked. When one person studies 2 or more arts and then combines them they have created their own mma. That mma can be taught as a tma or taught as a ring sport but it is by definition a mixed martial art. What mentality and training methods they employ will dramaticaly change how the style looks, feels and performs even if the techniques are the same.
Your thinking of pancrase. Pride definitely allowed virtually all strikes from standing including soccer kicks and stamping on grounded opponants.
Tossing in my two cents. I guess the guys who created Kajukenbo didn't know what they were doing, right? How about Bruce Lee? Yes, he founded JKD after Kajukenbo, so they were one of the first groups to create a mixed style about the same time that Imi Lichtenstein created Krav Maga, which would be followed twenty or so years later by another style under the KM umbrella known as Hisardut. Why did Bruce Lee combine a bunch of styles to create JKD? it's because he felt, and proved many times over, that one style will not save your life. He proved that to himself early on when he got into a fight and barely won. He was only fight at the time with Wing Chun. Ironic that WC has grown in popularity when he considered it a limited system, isn't it? Bruce created a martial art that combined styles because he wanted a martial art that would protect you. Isn't that why most of us study martial arts? Same thing happened with Imi. He had spent his youth training in Jiu Jutsu, Judo, Karate and a few other martial arts. He created it as a martial art that has no boundaries. When I trained in KM in Israel, the first thing we were taught is that there are no rules in a fight. Groin kick...yes. Poke the eyes out...yes. You get the point, right? Bruce Lee once said that the JKD he created would look very different within five years. He didn't believe in styles because he felt that styles come with rules and rules won't save you in a brutal mugging will they? Just my two cents but I would ask you to consider this. Every style today is a merging of other styles. Hapkido, which is still very young, has it's origins in Karate and Taekyon. Yip Man's WC is only one of about 200 styles of WC practiced in China today. TKD is also a mixture of styles. It's a very young, but effective martial art if taught correctly. Even Aikido is a merging of styles and Judo, which is one of the most popular martial arts to study, was created from Jiu Jutsu, so you could say Judo is a modification of a few styles. In the end, you'll be hard pressed to find any martial art in this country, or China, or Japan, that is thousands of years old. Even most of the different styles of Escrima were blended with other martial arts to become more effective. Nothing that is intended to keep you alive is going to be from just one style. And, if given the option between training in just WC or training at a TKD school that also offers classes in Judo and Escrima, well, you do the math. This is just my two cents though.
Bruce didn't create a multi style system. JKD draws influence from 26 different styles, but that isn't the same as a multi style system. Also incorrect. Bruce developed a personal system through processes and gradual adaptations.
Bruce also didn't want his system to be labeled as a style because that would imply there were rules and he didn't rules would save your life in a fight.
