Kukan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu Resources' started by Keikai, Apr 27, 2005.

  1. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Right,

    Something serious for a change, some of us have been talking about Kukan recently and this has risen on Kutaki, so what do you think it is? or if you think you know then what do you think of it? how do you use it? Rich and Gary- give someone else a chance before we slip into the beach ball conversation.
     
  2. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Ok I'll leave the Beach ball thing.....what about Bananas??? :D

    Serious now: I wouldn't mind knowing if these sort of concepts are covered in other Bujinkan off-shoot organisations.
     
  3. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Dont worry about other orgs lets just keep to kukan, whatever org your in!! :bang:
     
  4. RazorFist

    RazorFist New Member

    what exactly is kukan? Im sort of a noob myself so i really have trouble with the terms you more experienced persons use.
     
  5. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    It's generally translated as "space", but there appear to be a lot of very subtle martially relevant nuances in Hatsumi sensei's use of the term.

    I view it, at the most basic level, as "The totality, in all dimensions, of all aspects of the interactive space between combatants". (You could also expand this to include the "immediately influential" space around them as well.) You also have to consider it in terms of the 4th dimension, Time, because in an encounter the "shape of the space" is not a static thing -- so I consider "using kukan" as "manipulating the shape of space through time".

    Familiar with Chinese Feng shui (or in Japanese, Fusui)? It's complex -- take a look at these available online definitions: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define:+feng+shui&btnG=Google+Search

    It has to do both with "elemental energies", and also with positional arrangements and shapes which allow the focusing and/or harmonising of energies for a desired outcome. The last time Gyokko ryu (which originally was a Chinese temple art) was a major focus in Sensei's teaching (2001), he was presenting everything at a very high level and expressing what he was doing and teaching in terms of "tactical Feng shui". . .in fact, the video from Quest from that year's Daikomyosai training in Japan is titled "Budo no Fusui".

    That may help a bit. . .

    You may also find this useful: When I wrote the FAQ section for my website a few years ago, I included the following:

    Since I'm former military myself, I find I relate well to Jack's analogy of kukan as being equivalent to the "key terrain" that must be controlled in order for either opposing force to be able to win the battle.
     
  6. specourt

    specourt Hero in a half-wit shell

    For Dale, Normski and anyone else clever enough

    In order to develop this awareness/understanding/feeling, is it just a case of training for long enough, or are there particular physical/mental exercises that help promote it's development?
     
  7. xen

    xen insanity by design

    *xenmaster falls from the chair in shock as it appears someone has decided to use the forum for a discussion beyond the level of 'pants' and 'where can i train'

    his usual free-flowing linguistic style is stymied by disbelief and he leaves his computer in a confused daze....*
     
  8. E.E.N.S.

    E.E.N.S. New Member

    Dale, I like the way you worded that. I find that a lot of times it can be difficult to explain concepts without being live and in person - but I thought you said it very clear and easy to understand...good job! I have been saying this for a long time now, but it doesn't always sound so concise as you just simply put it (of course I may be trying to explain too many things at once.) Great!
     
  9. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    My friend Ben Cole in Michigan feels he has developed a conceptual model which enables students to visualize and use it, but so far he only seems to have been able to "get it across" to anyone in the context of hands-on work.

    For my part, it's something I always address and point out even when working on things like the kihon happo, so my own students have to deal with it from the very beginning of their training.

    I do feel that this is something that can't be really understood through verbal discourse -- that is, you can't read or talk about it and immediately understand it in a way that will allow you to use it. It requires movement, feeling, and physical experimentation as well.
     
  10. xen

    xen insanity by design

    dale,

    the comments about 'shape, pattern and total context...' are a very good way of expressing things...

    a question;

    isn't the long-term aim to unify the process' of the left and right hemispheres? i ask because the impression given by the quote from your site implies that one set of mental process' is more favourable than the other, yet (IMHO) to favour one aspect of ones nature over another is to restrict the options one has available and does not lead to full development of ones potential.
     
  11. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    The way i like to think of it is this; timing, distance and balance=kukan, if you`re missing any one of the three from the equation then you don`t have Kukan!.
    This is MY perception so i could be totally wrong, it`s a great thread for discussion though.
     
  12. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Ooh, good one!!!

    Yes, you're right for the most part.

    But we Westerners, in general, overuse the left hemisphere and neglect the right; so what (in my opinion) we first need to do is overemphasize what we lack in order to develop it to an equal level.

    It requires a shift in perspective and focus that's a bit like what happens when you examine some of M. C. Escher's art works, like this:


    [​IMG]
     
  13. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    Thanks for the picture Dale, i`ve now got to put my beer down!!!!!
     
  14. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    I know, a bit queasy-making. . .We need a "barf" smiley. :D
     
  15. sshh

    sshh Not Talking Anymore

    That kooky kuukan!

    Greg Chapman: "Right, Something serious for a change, . . . "

    Something serious? Seriously? And it was your idea?

    :eek:

    - xenmaster *xenmaster falls from the chair in shock as it appears someone has decided to use the forum for a discussion beyond the level of 'pants' and 'where can i train'

    his usual free-flowing linguistic style is stymied by disbelief and he leaves his computer in a confused daze....* -


    You're not the only one!


    Ok, now that my daze has worn off:

    I don't think that's actually an Escher painting, but instead an 'Escher-inspired' painting.

    Anyhoo . . .

    Once again, Dale-sensei, your experience is much appreciated!

    Dale Seago: "It's generally translated as "space", but there appear to be a lot of very subtle martially relevant nuances in Hatsumi sensei's use of the term."

    Whenever I hear the term, I think "space" too.

    However (and I think I saw this translation somewhere else too), in Monday's class, we were playing with staff, sword, knife, and Gyokko Ryu kata. During some hands-on work with my shidoshi (i.e. getting the crap kicked out of me), a particular movement within the technique was described as "taking up the slack between us."

    RE:

    "tactical Feng shui". . . Just as in a Japanese Zen garden the shapes of the spaces between objects are every bit as important as the nature and positions of the objects themselves in the overall composition, . . . "

    "Overall Composition" I think is a good way of thinking about it. Trying to see the space helps to ameliorate tunnel-vision.

    "Senior U.S. Bujinkan instructor and former Marine officer Jack Hoban, has expressed this idea eloquently in military terms: . . ."

    Yes, the last seminar of his I attended included many 'terrain-features' metaphors. It was really so simple the way he explained it, but the way it was applied to taijutsu was brilliant.

    ". . . Jack's analogy of kukan as being equivalent to the "key terrain" that must be controlled in order for either opposing force to be able to win the battle."

    Another good way to think about it!


    specourt: "In order to develop this awareness/understanding/feeling, is it just a case of training for long enough, or are there particular physical/mental exercises that help promote it's development?"

    I think it's a bit of both, but then I feel as if I'm 'on the inside looking in' - like trying to see inside your own house through a window while sitting inside the house - pretty Escher-esque, huh?
     
  16. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    I dont think it would appear through any other way, understanding the kukan is rightly as Norm says through time, distance and balance giving you the "space" as Dale rightly puts it, i put this down as slack, the amount of slack you give yourself in a technique so to speak!

    For me at a shodan level this is my level of understanding but i think people like Dale and Norm can offer a higher understanding but for me at my level i think my level is enough for the time being, thinking ahead causes confusion!

    To my is that by correctly understanding the intent of your opponent, you can place yourself in the correct position and therefore, gain yourself the time to reassess the scenario and ensure yourself a successful outcome. This goes hand in hand with reducing your opponent to zero.
     
  17. althaur

    althaur Hunting scum

    Dale is really great about teaching this concept. I tend to think about it in a military manner also. I want to take key terrain the the enemy needs to mount an effective attack, while leaving "openings" for him to exploit my percieved weaknesses. This all has to be done in a manner that hides my true intention and makes the badguy think he is smarter than me. The timing comes into play in how I suck in and then counter the opponents actions either before, during or after they start. This 3 different times have differing psychological impacts on the enemy.

    Anyhoo, I'm still learning this crap too. I'm sure Dale or Norm can verbally smack me upside the head with problems in my analogy. Besides, getting smacked by folks like them is how you learn. :)

    Josh
     
  18. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    Verbally?, nah, i normally do it with a rubber glove and a rabbit! :eek:
     
  19. Kris x

    Kris x :-p

    I don't understand this too much, but Greg asked me to join in(so he could take the mick out my lack of knowledge I believe:eek: :woo: )


    Kukan is timing, distance and balance.

    In taijutsu correct timing, distance and balance is very important.

    Kukan is used to wrap your opponent up in space leaving him with nothing to work with and leaving you the opportunity to apply a technique or run.

    :Angel:


    Btw, that pictures scary.:eek:
     
  20. xen

    xen insanity by design

    that makes sense.

    you also mentioned intuition, which is an interesting one and ties in with question about if this "expanded" awareness is developed through training or through specific exercise.

    As I understand intuition, it is primarily the means for the mind to make a correct assumption and subsequently a correct decision, leading to an approriate action, without the usual analytical process' of the conscious mind being engaged.

    In essence it seems to be a sub-conscious process which provides the conscious mind with information, but the conscious mind is not altogether clear how it came to hold such information.

    I work from the premise that the intuitional feelings are borne of experience. As we progress through life, we accumulate experience. Our sub-conscious is continually integrating what is occuring now with what has occured in the past. This leads to us receiving 'intuitional' messages from our sub-conscious when it encounters problems it has already solved, but which it has yet to reveal to the conscious mind.

    As such, training, which increases experience, leads, over time, to a greater capacity for accurate intuition.

    However, as Dale points out, in the west we are 'left-brain biased' or too reliant upon logic. This can cause us to dismiss or doubt our intuition.

    As such, any exercises which bring our awareness into our 'right-side' or creative side will have the knock on effect of helping us to develop faith in our intuition.
     

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