Just deserts ?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by hatsie, May 2, 2014.

  1. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    So assuming this guy is proven guilty. Guilty of raping a baby and beating him to death. What in your opinion would be appropriate punishment? And if not death, once he's 'done his time' would you be happy for him to move in next door to you and your young family?
     
  2. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    True, I agree with that notion. But that doesn't mean the governing body shouldn't rethink certain expenditures.


    That's awful. :p

    Which suspects are you talking about though?

    I firmly believe a little leniency in the right places can have a positive effect on people.

    Take my countries prostitution policy for example. In our country, you don't have a reason to be sexually frustrated. For like 60 euros you can play with a pretty lady/man for half an hour.


    I can totally understand the notion that the mental health and recovery of the victim's family is not the responsibility of the criminal prosecution (;)) and after thinking about it for a bit, I agree. Also because it would lead to bad things if the justice system took things like that into consideration.

    But to say you don't care is probably not quite right. You probably mean, "it's truly unfortunate but what's done is done..."

    At least, that's how I feel about it now. Your version sounds a little... sociopathic. :D


    Dehumanizing?

    I'm more worried about humanizing these people than the other way around. But I suppose I could refrain from calling them monsters.

    Great post btw. I gained some insight from it, so thanks.
     
  3. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I like how your options are either kill him or let him out. Also nice use of trying to play to my emotions by mentioning him living next to my family. Quite ironic since that's exactly the kind of behavior I'm arguing against.

    My solution is life imprisonment. The option you conveniently left out.
     
  4. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    True. Without knowing more about how the budget works though I can't offer much more. I will quickly say that I don't think the prisons should be sparse labor camps either. Too open to abuse (again, interesting points about how America's prisons have essentially reinvented the slave trade) and its easier to control a population that is at least somewhat content. On the opposite end of the spectrum I wouldn't want them living in converted mansions either.


    I'm not sure how I feel about that idea either :p It randomly came to mind as I was writing though and I thought it was an interesting idea. By suspects I meant people with child porn. Suspects was completely the wrong word to use though. Basically use any confiscated images.

    I firmly believe a little leniency in the right places can have a positive effect on people.

    And I assume it works. There's other issues with trafficking concerns and stuff but I don't think that's necessarily a mark against the idea itself.

    Hahaha if I get criminal prosecution service to become a thing I'm going to be so proud!

    I should qualify the other bit. I meant I don't care within the confines of thinking purely about how courts should work. If I was designing a court and someone brought that up to me I would just say I don't care and wave it off. Obviously on a wider, human scale I do feel sympathy for those people and wish them the best.

    Its just something I wanted to point out. Just because this thread hasn't been Godwinned yet it is what the nazis did to the jews :p

    Thanks dude. Thanks for replying to it too. Its nice being able to share ideas with people without having to insult each other :)
     
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    You realise there is a middle ground between what I've quoted there and free-for-all prison rape and torture right?
    It's not a binary choice.
    My treatment of such people would be very basic living in prison forever. Food, bed, toilet.
    I don't think sexual criminals can be rehabiliated to any reliable standard so shouldn't be let out.
    But the incarceration wouldn't so much to punish the offender as protect the rest of society.
    I think once we really understand brain make-up, brain chemistry, how personality is formed, impulse control, nature v nurture, genetic determinism and other things we'll be horrified at our treatment of criminals.
    Much like our understanding of animals means we are horrified by how we treated them in the past (well most people are).
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    What I'm most interested in is prevention.

    To understand something, you must study it.

    If you kill all your sample group, you have nothing to study.

    Then the death and cruelty carry on in darkness, with people just as ignorant of why people do terrible things as we ever were.

    I think the world has seen enough torture and killing to know that it is not a good deterrent. We have to find better ways to deal with the terrible things people do, or they will just keep doing them.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  7. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Yes, prison is so wonderful, I mean I'm thinking of committing a serious crime just to get in. I mean they uphold your basic human rights to be able to eat and sleep, and they even let you do stuff to distract you from rioting. You only have to deal with being separated from everyone you know and love, never being able to do anything with your life, seeing the end of any dreams you had, missing your kids grow up, being beaten and or raped and having a significantly higher risk of being murdered.
    I mean it's so great that suicide rates amongst lifers are as low as 30%!
     
  8. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    So someone with gross psychological dysfunction? :rolleyes:
     
  9. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Which is why we don't have the death penalty any more in this country.

    And this despite repeated attempts by the tabloids to whip up public support for it. One of the few reasons to be proud of politicians in this country is that all the main parties have refused to try to make political capital out of a "let's appeal to the lowest common denominator" pitch to bring it back.
     
  10. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    /Thread
     
  11. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    I personally think inmates should work as much as the people outside. I mean, why not? I'm sure there's a lot of stuff they can do if they're handled properly. And in return, they get paid properly so they have some money when they get out and perhaps give them better treatment on the inside.

    My country has inmates working around 20 hours a week and there's actually a prison-shop where they can buy cigarettes and stuff.

    I think there are some dignity issues with that lol. How would you feel about it if there was a pedophile in prison, yanking his junk to his imagination of your butthole? Well, maybe you wouldn't care, but I don't think many people would be cool with that haha.

    Maybe people who don't care about that either and sympathize with them would want to share their childhood pictures with them. That would probably be better since it's their own choice.

    But the general population will scream murder at the fact we're feeding their desires though. :woo:

    True there are some issues with girls getting forced into that business, but it's going to happen whether it's legal or not. At least if it's legal there's some supervision on the thing, but we could do a better job than we currently are.


    Unfortunately, in my daily life I'm surrounded with people who dispute rational thoughts and while they're not entirely dumb, they have no desire at all to make proper arguments and at this point they've become unable to, despite my positive encouragement. Too much "I don't care, I know I'm right" for too long. :dunno:

    As someone who's greatest goal in life is self-improvement, I went to internet forums to exchange ideas. It took me a while to get comfortable with the fact I'm an idiot though, so I snapped back at people for a while. But even idiots can learn if they put their mind to it. :D
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  12. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    Taken out of context...
     
  13. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    Despite my wish to execute serial killers and whatnot, for this same reason I don't believe in the death penalty either.

    The chance of executing someone who's innocent is bad enough for me to dispute the death penalty altogether.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  14. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    What sorts of jobs though? Most people wouldn't want to work with a convict who is still serving time at the end of the day, nearly regardless of how much security there is.

    What about a rewards system? Start off with the inmate barely having a mattress and nothing else. Over time, for good behaviour, they earn things back like toothbrushes, pillows, a warmer blanket, more outside time, etc. But if they get into trouble they lose everything. What do we think of that idea?

    You've got a point. My wife got kicked off a pregnancy and child care discussion group for saying what Southpaw said in a theoretical discussion. You've really got to balance the benefits of some lenience versus the risk of fuelling a fantasy that someone might act on. And get past people's knee jerk reactions.

    And I got kicked off a law forum in a theoretical discussion for making similar points as well :p

    YOU'RE A DIRTY FALMER LOVING BOSMER WHO PLAYS WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S SCABBARDS!!! :mad:

    There you go, now you get it on the internet too :p

    To be fair dude, you're not an idiot. You should see some of the people I live near. If you asked for their opinions on a mathematical question, they'd give you an onion (they take out the pi :p ).
     
  15. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    I was thinking about agriculture and gardening and that sort of thing. Also working at factories and janitor stuff. There are plenty of jobs they can do. The problem is safety and escape attempts, but they just have to think those through.

    I like our Dutch way of having a prison-shop. Also putting some of the money on an account they can use when they get out.


    Honestly, anything intelligent you see me saying, is the result of more than a decade long, daily obsessive effort to improve myself. Both as a person and as a thinker. Although it seems that the more I learn, the faster I learn. Funny how that works...

    I used to be dumb and stubborn and I was quite a bad person. Like, real bad. I don't want to talk about specifics, but it could've gone very wrong with me.

    Since you started referencing Skyrim first, I'll show my favorite quote from that game. :D

    "What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? " :hat:
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  16. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Looking back, I can see that, problem when threads get big quickly. In my defence the point I made counters a common argument in this type of discussion, so you can see how I became confused.
    To answer the point you were making, being a psychopath is not fun. Don't get confused by unrealistic media portrayals. Psychopaths are victims of their own pathology, it prevents them from enjoying the things that the rest of us treasure most in life (indeed in media portrayals I think this is one of the things Dexter conveyed really well). Your typical psychopath is not a blood crazed evil genius, they are a sad and lonely person who can't make any kind of real connection with people and find life deeply unsatisfying. Therefore if they could be rehabilitated they have been punished all their lives up to that point.
     
  17. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Prison commissary is standard practice as far as I know. I agree with getting prisoners to work but it depends how you do it. This is where I got my stuff about slave trade from :p

    But its not something I heard and felt very good about. If nothing else, when you have an industry that large its impossible not to expect it to become corrupt as its essentially a corporate interest in getting people imprisoned and keeping them there.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPZed8af9RI"]Stephen Fry on American Prisons Facts - YouTube[/ame]
     
  18. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    wow...
     
  19. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Anyone who rapes a 20 month old doesn't deserve to live. If it were my child I'd be cheering the crowd on if he is truly guilty. Chances are in Brazil's prisons he won't live long enough to really serve any time in prison. Call me vindictive or whatever you want, imagining what that child went through is unspeakable.
     
  20. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    The problem with prisons is the can be criminal production lines. You take a young fellow who's made a few mistakes, gets banged up 24-7 with certain types and being subjected to crime talk, morning, noon and night. Pretty much a university in criminology :) so by the times he gets out, he's probably worse than when he went in!

    I knew a guy who murdered an old man ( claimed he was touching him up) was locked up for years ( maybe 20?) my best friend used to visit him out of loyalty, he said the conversation was always about crime and how to perfectly commit it " most people get caught by grassing each other up..... If we stick together...." I don't think any of the conversations revolved around the old man, or his family and any remorse.

    When he was finally released within a few months, he had knifed some young guy over an argument. And went back inside.

    Prisons have an effect on people, it's often not the one we hope for though.

    I am a bit thrown into though by a few comments which is good, getting me thinking.
     

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