Has the availability of MA made kata redundant?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Van Zandt, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Apply this to any traditional system that teaches kata, patterns, forms etc.

    This isn't a question of whether or not you should practice kata because you enjoy them, but rather, should students who don't enjoy them be forced to practice them?

    Example: I train at an ITF TKD club. Several students hate patterns but enjoy the pad work and sparring side of training. Yet they are forced to practice patterns every class by the senior instructor/owner, even though they have no desire to grade. Cue endless repetitions of saju jirugi, boredom, and fewer students.

    I'm not debating the efficacy or legitimacy of kata applications, i.e. is the block a block, or is it actually a throw. Rather, can the obscure (and some would argue questionable) "combative applications" of kata continue to be a justification to push kata on students, when if they really wanted to know how to throw, choke, armbar etc, they could easily seek out that instruction at a place that excels in it.
     
  2. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    As ever, it depends on why you train. Many people like doing patterns for the challenge they present, so for those people it isn't time wasted.

    If these students only want padwork and sparring, they should be at a kickboxing/thai/mma club :)

    Mitch
     
  3. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    I'm not the biggest fan of kata myself, but I do them because a) I take them as training for discipline, concentration as such and b) it's part of the game.
    As Mitch said, if you absolutely don't want them to do, some other art might be the better choice.

    Plus: If the instructor says they have to be done - it's a bit old-fashioned maybe, but than they have to be done. On the mats he's the boss.

    But I can probably talk easily, since my Karate instructor himself isn't doesn't like kata; so we don't nearly do them every session (we don't have a kata-centered style), so when we do them they actually be sort of fun at times.
    And I get used to them more and more, so it's not half as horrible to them sometimes as it was in the beginning; it helps doing them only ever other week (roughly).
     
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  4. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    I would opt to do another one if i had access to it.

    Not everyoen does have that much competition in which ones they can do though which basically means they have to do X art or dont do anything, which obviosuly means the school gets a lot of leeway in appealing etc. Political standpoint, thats why monopolies are bad. :p

    edit: No they shouldn't get people who have no intrest in grading to do grading patterns, they should appeal and cater to their market if they want to run a buisness and thats how you run one.
     
  5. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    Buses and trains, I tell you.

    I have no idea what you're saying there.

    If people really want something - or something else in this case - they find ways to do so.

    They're busines is a kata doing system, for people who want to do this system.
    Why on Earth should they neglect parts of their system, so some people have it easier.

    There's two options, in my opinion: Doing the system you attend, in it's entirety. Which includes forms.
    Most boxers don't complain about shadowboxing.

    And the second is: Do another system.
    Not only skip forms (people like that wouldn't have to come to my classes), regardless of grading or not (they sure as hell wouldn't see a grading either way).
    But going to class and complaining - nope.

    EDIT: They don't run a business to please you or another single person, but to teach a certain style.
     
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  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    In an ideal world the kata/pattern should be such an integral part of the syllabus that opting out of doing them would be like opting out of tying your shoelaces or putting some protection equipment on. The kata should just be part of the physical preparation you learn in order to fight. They should inform technique, tactics, drills, sparring formats, etc etc.
    Sadly in something like TKD the patterns are not an integrated part of the style as a whole. The sparring system and the pattern system represent two different sorts of fighting IMHO and come from two different traditions. As such doing them really is pretty useless and for getting the next grade only.
    Integrate them properly (not easy as TKD patterns aren't designed very well) and they become much more relevant, useful and necessary.

    But couldn't it also be argued that there are also students that like the lower intensity of patterns, collecting grades without actually having to fight that hard and really...doing an easier martial art?
    I'm not saying that's right but I don't think patterns make an art less popular overall. Although with the advent of MMA people are a lot more discerning about what they do so they could be.
     
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  7. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    Monopolies exist, there is a limit to how far you can logically travel, some areas are devoid of any competition anyway. Devoid of competition you need to use their service if you want that service.

    They run a buisness thus they cater to the market and have to show why people should use their service above others. Kata is still only a segment of the styles and im pretty sure they can remove that to tailor to a market.

    In theory, somone should break off and do a kickboxing club to tap into the demand of learning how to kickbox. But to a similar reason as to the uncomeptitive market for people looking to learn there might not be a place for someone to learn to teach it well. (edit: Forgot to put that point in my orginal post.)

    They run one to make a profit and the prerequisite to running a business and keeping one is making a profit, to make a profit you need to supply what the market demands.
     
  8. Anwolf

    Anwolf Valued Member

    Sounds quite unreasonable to me. If somebody doesn't want to grade, why should they do something which has no purpose whatsoever other than grading.

    And on the other hand, if someone went to boxing classes and said 'I don't want to spar because I'm not going to compete' would you say 'Get out of my class'? Because that's what you sound like.
     
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Because in an art that has grades what grade you are can determine what you are taught and what access you get to further training.
    For example in the TKD I do the sparring format changes as you go up the grades. If you don't grade you are stuck doing the "beginner" type of sparring.
     
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  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    The free market says that if there is no demand, then no service will be offered, it sounds like your lack of access to a kickboxing club, is down to the free market, good job the government runs buses and trains so that people can travel without owning a car.
     
  11. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    That's a reflection on the ability (or lack thereof) of the instructor to coach different abilities in the same class. Holding back someone who clearly has the sparring ability of a black belt from doing continuous sparring, just because they can't do a pattern, is stupid.
     
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  12. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    Im pretty sure the government doesnt run any busses or trains here. I think you meant to say: "the government bails out these companies" :p

    But this is going to go way to political for this thread.
     
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'm not disagreeing man. When I teach I rarely do patterns, try to give context to them when I do and always teach everyone in the same way (with differentiation by outcome rather than subject matter...I expect the highre grades to do it smoother, faster, with more aggro, etc).
    I'm just saying that arts with levels and grades are structured differently to arts that don't have them.
    Quite simply the instructor teaches what they are happy with and if their students are also happy with it then they do it and stay with them.
    If they aren't they bugger off and do something else or the teachers changes what they do.
    PLENTY of people with a TKD or Karate background have dropped patterns and set sparring etc and now just call what they do "kickboxing" or something.
     
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  14. SCA

    SCA Former Instructor

    I don't agree with "forced to practice patterns every class" when there are so many other aspects to learn. That sounds unbalanced to me.

    Forms are a type of standing meditation along with other benefits but I agree with Mitch here, find a different school or art to practice if a student really doesn't like them. My kung fu training had them; the Hapkido I learned did not.
     
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Actually theirs quite a few council run bus services in the UK, all of NI buses and trains are also government owned, the rest are licenced out by the government.

    The point still stands, the free market only works with a regulated marketplace, and some government subsidies are neccasary to shape that market, the amount of subsidies is the issue in hand.

    Either way you can't complain about your current training, when you have methods to travel to other places that offer alternatives.
     
  16. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    In that case people have two choices: Take it onto themselves to take buses or drive a longer way.
    Seriously: I live in a small town and even we have at least five arts within 20minutes walking distance in the next town; next cities have nearly everything, but you have a way of roughly 60minutes one way.

    It's about how much you really want to do something or if you sort of, maybe, under certain circumstances, ... Might want to do something, if it's not to much trouble.

    I decided I wanted it enough to leave my comfort zone on so many levels.


    The second option would be to do something else.
    If it's not an MA, it's pretty much tough luck, since you can only do what is available.

    If I were to want to learn HKD but the next school is 300km away - well, bad luck.
    I either drive that far or have to look for something else.

    But they run a business teaching a certain style, and to not to certain people that don't like certain parts.

    What would be the next step: You don't like pattern, so they scratch these.
    Another one doesn't like sparring, so they scratch it.
    Now, Kihon is boring, so they better scratch it.
    Warm-up? Nah, that's too much!
    What do you have left in the end?
    Meeting people and staying at one place, so no one gets tired?

    Schools for certain arts aren't there to make every one attending happy about everything, they are there, to teach a certain system.
    And when I decide to learn a system, I would be rather annoyed, if they were to just scratch parts, because someone might not like it.
    After all: I want to learn a system and not only, parts of it.

    If it were done like that, MAs would have a rather dark future.

    Not sure I understand that right.
    But it someone doesn't know his basics properly, he shouldn't be teaching anyway.

    And learning how to teach - you can learn that on seminars and the like.
    You don't go learning an art and miraculously know how to teach as well.



    Sure they want to make profit.
    But they want to do that with the chosen art.

    Just imaging the following: You go there, and they are nice enough to remove Kata/ Hyongs/ Poomse/ whatever.
    They do that several months, people hear of it and don't go there, because the style is missing parts.
    And after three months you decide to leave as well, for whatever reason.

    They would have not only lost their reputation, new students, ... but in addition the one student they did that for.


    Because it is an integral part of the style anyway.

    And once you let people in training only do what they want, you lose the discipline in the class, because everyone would only, do what they want.

    If John doesn't have to do Kata, why does Jane have to do Kihon?
    And if both of them don't have to do that, why does Doe have to attend the warm-up?

    You go to learn a certain style.
    If you want to learn something else, than by all means go and do that.

    People go to the schools to learn something; the schools don't go to the people with the wish to castrate themselves.

    First of, I think sparring is different, because you can actually get hurt there.

    But what I would do: I would advise them to look for fitness boxing.

    If they want to stay anyway - no, I wouldn't force them to fight.

    But if they were wanting to stay, I would force them to do shadow boxing (btw: I get forced to do that as well. I totally hate that, because my brain is having massively problems with it and I actually can't do it) and pad work, because that's a learning tool, yes.

    Same with Kata - they're tools, to learn.


    Ps.: I wrote that on the phone.
    I checked the preview and it seemed alright, but if I made quoting errors, I'm very sorry.
     
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  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yes they should

    I hate kata/patterns with a passion, but their utility is undeniable - one of my system training advisors is a kata specialist (the always affable John Titchen no less)

    If it is part of a system then a student doesn't get to pick or choose - they do it or they go somewhere else. Now it could be a case of finding a style that better suits them, but if the only thing that is making them give pause is they have to learn a pattern then "suck it up buttercup" and train

    Most students aren't good enough to know what they want or need beyond a vague notion anyway, so unless they are advanced and or skilled enough this should not even be up for discussion
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
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  18. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    Doesnt mean to say my area has any council ran bus services nor was i disputing their existance.

    Second line leaving at debatable.

    I wasnt. The point is, not everyone has access to or can utilize public transport to go to X and return home.
     
  19. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    +1

    I ruled out BJJ in the beginning, because it seemed sort of boring.
    Now I would LOVE to learn either BJJ or LL.

    You start sidetracking the thread again, only to have excuses why you can't do something.

    Spend less time at the PC and jump a bus instead.

    And again: If the certain wanted art isn't available around one - tough luck.

    Than one does something else (but properly and without special treatment; I mentioned some of my problems in several threads and my most "special treatment" is getting yelled at or getting sent off the mats. And whether I like it or not, it's usually even the right thing to do) or find a way to get to the desired art/ sport/ hobby.

    That's nothing MA exclusive.

    You don't go to a soccer club, complaining you can't use your hands, unless you're the goalie.
     
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  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    You can in lincolnshire, they have an on demand bus service.

    lincsinterconnect - public transport, bus services, lincolnsire
     

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