Hapkido

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by Anth, Mar 27, 2008.

  1. Dragonkarma

    Dragonkarma Valued Member

    The official histories, founders, and documentation of martial arts taught in Korea will be presented soon in two formats: 1. Book published by the Korean government
    2. A series of documentaries filmed by the Korean
    government.
    These should be available by the end of November.

    I disagree that just because a martial art participates in a sporting event that it suddenly becomes only a sport. It is BOTH martial arts ( outside of competition ) and sport when used as such .

    Hapkido is a pretty good system .
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    This sounds interesting. Do you have any sort of source or link to this information?
     
  3. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    As enticing as this sounds, Mr. Morrison, I would caution you to be skeptical nonetheless, since just because the "Korean government" is involved doesn't mean that the material won't be biased. After all, I seem to recall the gov't. backing the advancement of TKD back in the late 1960's and early 1970's, which included the supposed *direct lineage* back to the hwa-rang. Anyone that believes such a direct link to ancient traditions exists, is in dire need of a reality check IMO. YMMV. :bow1:
     
  4. Hapkido-Co

    Hapkido-Co New Member

    Hi unknown-KJN.

    Thanks for the info. I had thought that it was Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu but (like dealing with the banks) I always ask.

    Dragonkarma

    What I mean about the "it becomes a sport" is that Hapkido is a self defence martial art. My personal belief is that if you make a sport of it, it will be diluted. That is all.
     
  5. Koguryo Hansoo

    Koguryo Hansoo 고대 한국어 간첩 자객

    I believe when they refer to any connection back to the early Dynasties is perhaps that most of the techniques and essence of the Korean Art or any KMA IE TKD HKD GumDo, in my opinion 60% has come down the pipe untouched, 20% CMA influence and coming back from the origin 20% JMA if you look at Tae Kyon and Modern Tae Kwon Do and really have a eye for it you will see it.. And like i said is just my opinion.. unfortunately it will be hard to say the same as Hap Kido as they might be only a few old practitioners of the old Yusul to compare with what we know as modern Hap Ki Do, I belive that Choi and the other Master that came from Takeda where not the only ones that had knowledge of wrist joint manipulation etc. etc. in Korea at the time of the development of Hap Kido early days, and it makes perfect since to me that the early practitioners incorporated what we know as standard in HKD curriculum because it was truly part of the teachings before the HKD name movement..... " NO DOCUMENTATION" oh well we will have to live with that till we find some, but we can't denied that there is more than just than Nationalistic motive nor the plain and simple assumption that has been stolen from neighbor countries.... Like Spok said .. "An ancestor of mine maintained, that if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" :hat: "IM NOT KOREAN"
     
  6. Koguryo Hansoo

    Koguryo Hansoo 고대 한국어 간첩 자객


    Hope to see this soon...:bow1:
     
  7. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    I have a lot of respect for Hapkido as a martial art. What little I have seen has always been interesting and exciting. However to describe it as a 'complete art of self-defense' simply makes me cringe. Surely it has nothing like the weapon techniques of Krav Maga (e.g. Pistol, Rifle, Hand Grenade...)? Does it have firearm retention techniques? Does it teach conflict resolution, verbal de-escalation skills, psychology of conflict? Does it include first aid training?

    Now I am not saying that it does not have any of the above (I don't know) but without them all (and much much more) it is NOT a 'complete art of self-defense'.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2010
  8. Koguryo Hansoo

    Koguryo Hansoo 고대 한국어 간첩 자객

    I think is very complete ART as defense of all kinds weapons techniques can be executed no problem .... As for people walking down town with rifles and grenades is unlikely and if i find any of that i will sure have some of my own :woo: as for first aid yes must MA Art instructors are CPR/First aid qual and if not there is nothing that 911 can't cover at least in the US :bang: .

    In the other hand as a military member i see your point of view and can say that as "one on one" last result HKD has one of the biggest if not the biggest toolbox there is... is a mater of knowing how to apply it on the right situation.. does most HKD schools teach this maybe not is it necessary ??? maybe as most practitioners of HKD don't have the threat of PPL walking down the street with rifles and grenades. but most techniques are well applicable to an array of different scenarios....
     
  9. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Regarding both the history and the nature of Hapkido the defining lines are blurred by a number of factors including self-service, nationalism, misinformation and misrepresentation.

    In its most specific sense, one can only go directly back to JI Han Jae and only JI Han Jae. In its broadest application one can accept the term "hapkido" for practically any combative art related to Korean culture.

    Such a broad range of definitions allows any number of people to represent what they do as "Hapkido" while avoiding accountability for where their material came from, what its objectives are and to what degree its actual execution approximates its represented intentions.

    Once again, I must report that the circumstances I am refering to exist because thats the way people in the Hapkido community want them to be. The end-goal in the Hapkido community seems to be to represent what one does as significantly more potent than what other practices offer, while avoiding the sort of commitment and training that would make such a representation true across the board. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  10. Hyung

    Hyung Valued Member

    Again, the question is: " What is and what is not Hapkido? "
     
  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Perhaps the following exerpt may be of some guidance:

    ".....
    Hapkido ("Way of Coordinated Power") identifies a Korean method of combat utilizing hand strikes, kicks, joint-locks, throws, restraints and chokes. In its most specific use the term Hapkido identifies that art transmitted to Han Jae Ji by Yong Sul Choi between 1953 and 1957.
    In a broader sense, though, the term Hapkido has also come to identify Korean martial arts which incorporate both strikes and grappling according to the three guiding principles of Hapkido, and derive from, or are heavily influenced by, the Japanese martial art Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu. Into this category fall a wide range of organizations (kwans) including, but not limited to, Mu Sul Kwan, Yon Mu Kwan, Hapki Yu Sool, and Jung Ki Kwan. There are also various federations and associations the most notable of which are the World Kido Federation, the International Hapkido Federation and the Korean Hapkido Federation.
    In its widest usage Hapkido also identifies organizations and arts which seek a greater representation of the Korean Martial tradition. These organizations' heritage may derive in some part from either the teachings of Yong Sul Choi, or his students. However, the way the body is used in these arts may, as much, reflect the strong Chinese and Buddhist heritage of the Korean culture. This category includes the arts of Kuk Sool Won, HanMuDo, Hwarangdo, Han Pul, Mu Yei 24 Ban (Kyong Dang), as well as the martial training practices of the Sun Monasteries.
    ..............................."

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  12. Hyung

    Hyung Valued Member

    That is a very operational and convenient definition of Hapkido, based principally on it's korean origin, it's remote roots to Daedong ryu and it's history. But technically speaking, is it impossible to determine a single technique done by one executioner, to be "hapkido", only by seeing it done without the executioner's own claim of being a "hapkido" technique?
    What makes a hapkido technique, as such?

    There are so many different techniques, maybe because it's eclectic and composite nature of hapkido, that then, anything "can" be called hapkido.
    What in my short apprenticeship I have seen, there are some basic technically speaking, notions that make a hapkido technique a "very hapkido" technique.... different to an "aikido-esque" or "jujutsu-esque" technique.

    For example, the preferent use of medium and small circles, the breaking-cut down circles, the preferent (but not exclusively) middle and big joints standing grappling submission techniques, the use of the "living" hand grabbing (with the extended index finger) and the use of this as a small lever (sometimes using as fulcrum, depending on the technique, the inner edge of the base of the thumb and/or the inner edge of the base of the index finger), the use of the bony edges of the forearms (the radial and ulnar bones) as lever fulcrums and as striking contact surfaces instead of tipical elbow strikes, the use and believe on "dan jon" breathing exercise to increase inner "ki"... and not to mention also the extensive repertoire of kicking techniques.

    But maybe it is only my own impression, and there is nothing technically speaking, unique to the "hapkido arts".
     
  13. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Of course, you are very right. Even people in the same school or organization are going to do the same technique differently. Its just people being people. Different teachers will do a technique differently though they are part of the same organization. Do a Shoulder Throw and various people will chime-in as to whether that throw is JUDO, JU-JUTSU, YAWARA, CHIN NA, SSIREUM, etc etc.

    In my own, personal experience the success of defining Hapkido and the manner in which this is done is usually directly related to the agenda of the person forming the definition. OTOH, the success of a definition for Hapkido is also directly related to the willingness of a person to accept a definition which may or may not support THAT person's agenda. In this way, a person who studys at the YONG SUL KWAN and learns a version of the art closely related to what CHOI taught originally will define "Hapkido" in this way. However, a person who trains in SIN MU Hapkido will take exception to the first person's poverty of kicks and strikes and hold that Hapkido must be defined in terms of what JI Han Jae has taught. I am a veteran of innumerable such discussions, and the solutions are always confounded by the slender lines drawn between what one person does as differentiated from that of the person standing next to him.

    Hapkido began as primarily a joint-lock art and people have fed into that core any number of practices and still called thye art by its original name. They can do this because there is little or no accountability when this is done. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  14. Dragonkarma

    Dragonkarma Valued Member

    Korean traditional martial arts

    The long awaited documentary by the Korean government on Korean traditional martial arts is out. I will have my hands on a copy by the end of February and will post clips on youtube. The inital film is in Korean BUT is being translated. It is in 3 parts :

    1. dvd #1 covers tae kyon, tae kwon do, hae dong gum do, sierum, and a few others. The dvd documents the ACTUAL founders of each art.

    At the bequest of the Japanese government ( due to the upcoming Olympic martial arts competition committee ) , the Korean government told hapkido to change its name, since "hapkido" is the Korean pronounciation of aikido.

    The various factions of hapkido balked at this idea and couldn't come to an agreement on who should be the leader or what name should be chosen to replace the name "hapkido" ( Big surprise).

    The leaders didn't change the name, and so the Korean government dropped them from the documentary.

    2. The second dvd is on Kuk Sool and its founder-In Hyuk Suh.
    3. The 3rd dvd is about how "martial " and "art" come together and what that means.

    Martial arts deemed "non-traditional" in Korea, are excluded from the documentary.
    I will know more once I see the film and will post that to youtube.
     
  15. hapkiyoosool

    hapkiyoosool Valued Member

    Thank you for creating this thread.
    Some very interesting stuff.
    I have not been in these forums for many years.
    I try to stay out of them. They have been a source of disappointment for me.
    Thank you again for all the hard work and research.
    People have make some very interesting contributions as well.
     
  16. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    @Dragonkarma, can you give me the titles of these DVD's?
    I will visit Korea later this year and would like to purchase them.
     
  17. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    I heard this from a Korean master also. Does anyone have any information on this Hapkido name change?
     
  18. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Whenever a art is founded, the founder has studied another art(s) had decided to create a newer version. Try it as they may to differentiate, in the end, a joint lock is a joint lock, a hip throw is a hip throw, "a rose by any other name is still a rose"

    Lineage is grand, but the concentration of the study and to perfect oneself is the primary.
     
  19. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Well....yes and no. One issue that never ever seems to get addressed in many of these threads is the role of cultural context in what is being done. For instance, if sword-work is just a about "cutting" why might a person need to pursue, say, Japanese Sword, or Korean sword. Why not just go buy a machete, find a grove of saplings and have at it, right?

    In like manner, if a person wants to learn how to defend themselves in the modern society why take Karate when a few months of training at a Boxing Gym will give them eminently pragmatic skills in a much shorter period of time.

    No....there is something else going on here. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  20. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I was not suggesting that all is, to pun, "cut" and dry. Of course there are differences per the tool, but not the end result, per cutting, if you are using a sword or a machete are the same. Especially on the poor bloke on the receiving end.
     

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