Hapkido in New Zealand

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by Kave, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Nice post, good comments.

    No he didn't start Hapkido in 1945...it did not exist until 1948.

    He was not an early student, and appears to have no connection directly to the founder in Daegu.

    Good questions on your part indeed!
     
  2. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Klaas,

    You know this is nonsense. We are questioning his legitimate rank in Hapkido. There is no transparency in his claim to 9th Dan at all. He might teach some form of great self defense - if he has no legit ranks in Hapkido, its not Hapkido...period.

    It is time to stop saying "go train with them" and demand that these types of claims have some verifiable foundation!

    He claims a 9th Dan Hapkido, from whom, when, where and with whom did he train.

    Let's start making people accountable for there rank claims, instead of letting them get away with lies.
     
  3. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    The type of information here is IMHO an example of why Hapkido is such a mess. Then roots are Choi Dojunim, but at Ji, the material is no longer Hapkido but changed to reflect his limited training with Choi Dojunim, and his claims of Taoist Lee and Granny.
    There is still no direct information about Lee Jung Nam, so we have no evidence of his training or rank, maybe he did train with Ji, who knows...
     
  4. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    Pellikaan can't have been training with GM Lee for overly long. Lee didn't arrive in New Zealand until 1975. Pellikaan was back living in the Netherlands in March 1979. Realistically 3 and a half years training under GM Lee would be possible, but probably less.
    Here is a link to an article with a copy of Pellikaans first dan certificate:http://www.traditioneelhapkido.nl/Pellikaan_44_.jpg
    and here is a link to an article in Dutch about GM Lee:http://www.traditioneelhapkido.nl/nieuw_samurai_1979.jpg
    I wish I could read Dutch.
     
  5. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    Others will argue that hapkido is "the things Ji learned from Choi + Tao + Grandma"
    I personally have a more liberal view of what hapkido is, than you have.

    Eventually I do believe that if a school teaches sound self defense that is more important than what style they teach.

    @Kave
    The Dutch article isn't about GM Lee. It is a translated letter of Lee (the article does mention he is a 6th dan) in which he tells people they now have the chance to learn hapkido.
    And yes Pellikaan was a first dan when he first arrived. He later hooked up with a German hapkido teacher (Kim Sou-bong) before transfering to the IHF. I believe he was a 5th dan in 1992 when he moved back to New Zealand.
     
  6. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    It doesn't matter how "liberal" you are, of those three people - Choi Dojunim, Taoist Lee and Granny, which ONE do we actually know existed?

    Not a question of what someone argues - that is why Hapkido is a jumbled mess, and we know that these two mythical people were supposed to exist at the end of the 1950"s and 1960"s. We have a few pictures of Choi Dojunim during this time, but none of these two. What's more likely, that Ji made them up, or he just ran out of film during all that time?

    And great self defense training is important - but if you claim it is Hapkido, then teach that, if it a dog's breakfast of technique, teach then call it that!
     
  7. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    Even so, we know for a fact that Ji Han-jae has always been a big promotor of hapkido and that the hapkido he taught was for some part material that came from Choi and for some part material that came else where.
    After Ji Han-jae went his own route, there was still contact with Choi who came to Seoul to teach at seminars.
    I have no experience with the Jungki kwan material. I did have the pleasure to go to a seminar with Kim Yun-sang from the hapki yusul group and enjoyed it very much. It was the closest I have ever been to Choi's original material and if I wasn't perfectly happy with hankido I would have walked away from whatever hapkido-style that is out there and would have joined his group. I saw a lot of things that I think are lacking in most other hapkido schools that I have come across.
    Kim calls what he teach hapki yusul, which I think is a much better name for a Korean martial art than hapkido. (if it was up to me, we would take the do away from hapki or hankido and replace it by something like muye)
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Klaas - I was just reading up on both Kim Sou-bang and Kim Yun-sang - they good excellent mentions in Dr. KImm's Hapkido History book.
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Yup. I am much more liberal than you but I agree in one main way - any "Hapkido" group (whether they claim being orthodox, pure, mixed, or -based) has to be able to trace lineage back to Choi Yong-sool Dojunim. It sounds like GM Lee Jung-nam traces back to GM Ji Han-jae but I am not seeing anything in the links or references that point out where he trained in Hapkido. He's "old" enough that there couldn't have been too many sources of Hapkido yet.
     
  10. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Tracing lineage is only PART of the equation. The other part is what standing the person has in the art in reference to that lineage. If that standing is minimal, then it MUST be part of the equation.

    If the person only has a 3rd dan in Hapkido, they should not be issuing rank higher...if that happens, the rank is not in Hapkido. It matters.

    Lee Jumg-nam does not list rank reference, or training. We can "assume" all we want. Until then, his rank is simply suspect.
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Good point

    True enough. Part of that problem is that since the founding of Hapkido, there have been people who truly "earned" rank, thers who "bought" rank, and others who were given rank (sometimes an airplane ride resulted in a big jump in rank). In many cases, rank has been issued faster than a time-in-grade system would have required. Sometimes this was done with the belssing of the (legitimate) issuing authority, sometimes for money or favors and sometimes to help spread the art.

    So, the tougher part is looking at what rank they hold, where it comes from, and most importantly, what skills they actually have. In this case, I have no clue of any of the these things (although I stand by my orginal assertion that the red belt in the video looks about as good as a 2 or 3 year 'red' belt student in other commercial HKD schools that I have seen.)


    True enough - he may or may not have legitimate rank. It sounds like he came to New Zealand with a 6th dan (from where, I don't know) and eventually ended up at 9th dan. I assume he was awarded a 7th and 8th dan. Those ranks may indeed come from a legitimate source and maybe even a legitimate test of skills. Maybe not.

    One thing I would mention though is that I think the "rank" culture is changing. 20 years ago, few people would ask an instructor (especially a senior one) where their rank is from (let alone a complete rank trail). Nowadays it's not really uncommon to see people asking these questions. Perhaps the wed site designers have never bothered to ask for a rank trail.

    I think Master Callum Forbes is one of his students - I wil send an e-mail to him letting him know about this thread.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I had a very nice exchange of e-mails with Master Forbes (and I took a look at his Facebook page for Upper Hutt Hapkido) - he seems very open and friendly and I would heartily recommend anyone near any of those schools to go and check them out.

    Master Forbes wasn't able to share a lot of information about GM Lee Jung-nam (who is retired) but noted that they have been accepted into GM Seo In Sun's World Kido/Hanminjok Hapkido Association as a member group and that Master Forbe's rank was recognized by the HHA.

    I am very familiar with the HHA - my parent group (IHCF) is recognized as a "Kwan" by them, my GM (Pellegrini) is a student of GM Seo In Sun, I've attended a two day HHA seminar with GM Seo In Sun, and hold a 3rd dan through the HHA as well. The HHA serves as an umbrella group for Korean Martial Arts (excluding Taekwondo) and does require documentation and/or proof of background.

    My guess is that Master Forbes and the group he represents met all of the requirements of the HHA and was accepted in. It is a loose group, but the HHA must have been satisfied with the history and performance of the members.

    World Kido http://kidohae.com/
    Hanminjok Hapkido http://hmjhapkido.or.kr/
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  13. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    Regarding the claims on the site, if this teacher is like many older Korean teachers I know, he may not have even seen his website, let alone know what some well-intentioned student might have wrote on it! This could explain some of the dates. Many organizations see rank as a way to establish a leadership hierarchy that does not reflect skill, so the difference between 7th and 9th dan, for instance, or how that person got rank would not concern me, although I know others will disagree. My understanding is that there are lots of ROK special forces units, and lots of ROK army instructors, so some of the claims may not be so unusual, given that. Most Korean instructors will gladly take a phone call and don't mind answering questions, so I suggest just calling the guy if people have real questions.

    After seeing this video, there is one weird thing that no one has mentioned. That is that replay of the guy kicking the woman who was testing in the head. Since she was the one testing and not him, it just seemed a little weird to have a replay of an instructor busting out a head kick on a student. Anyone else think that was a weird thing to replay?

    Other than that, I also thought that the student looked like most other 2-3 year students in most commercial schools. For those viewing from other arts, please note that when people take hapkido tests, they are usually made up of only compliant techniques. Even if the school does some sort of free practice or "live" training with the techniques, they are not usually the bulk of the test. (The reason for this is that when you train in standing joint locks, the compliant techniques teach only "concept" and are not necesarily how the technique would look in application. For a variety of reasons I will not go into here, most Hapkido people think that it is better to spend a lot of time on non-resitive techniques before live practice, as compared to rolling-based arts, which tend to dive right into resistive training). There are technical things I saw on this video that I would disagree with, but reasonable people can disagree about technique and teaching methods.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  14. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    If he came to New Zealand in 1975 as a sixth dan and tested to ninth in 2000. The guy certainly isn't a dan jumper. If he was your average dan jumper he would have been a 9th dan much earlier. He certainly did take the time to go from 6th to 9th and didn't take any short cuts from 6th to 9th. I think this speaks for him, not against him.

    What I have heard is that he started teaching mostly TKD when he arrived in New Zealand and only HKD to a couple of people. Pellikaan was a police agent back than, and that would have been the reason why he learned HKD from him.

    When you read the story I am 100% sure that he didn't write it himself. The names of the places are wrong for example or very misspelled sometimes.
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    In my correspondence with Master Forbes, he indicated that GM Lee came to NZ as a 5th dan, and then returned to Korea for his 6th-9th dans every 5 or 6 years (or so). I get the impression that his rank was obtained legitimately and it sounds like he took the pains to wait for time in grade and to test under a ranking authority in Korea periodically. This is something that a lot of less scrupulous instructors may not have done.

    I'll keep my eyes open... maybe there will be more information to be found.
     
  16. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    "time in grade" was not a relevant issue to Choi Dojunim, but he did restrict rank based on geography, and hence how much time a person could have actually trained with him.
    In discussions of rank, the most important is what and where the rank was attained, that is supposed to be a measure of skill, ignoring that and assessing skill level is more of a personal thing.
     
  17. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    With all due respect Thomas, in a discussion of rank this organization is a perfect example for perhaps another thread.
    The founder of this group has a 3rd Dan in Hapkido, and studied Kuk Sool Won his whole life, then founds this group issueing Hapkido rank, yet I have never seen anyone else in the organization with legitimate rank in Hapkido high enough to be part of the high ranks issued.
    Off topic, but worth mentioning.
     
  18. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    The site was put together with enough attention to detail to add material relevant to TKD, the same really should have been done for Hapkido. I do agree with much of what you say above, but think when someone creates a site to advertise their school, or organization and makes claims that the head was a 9th Dan in TKD and Hapkido, information should be provided.
    Moreover, and more an observation, not critique, why does the group get rank from Hanminjok and not from the in house 9th Dan?

    Yeah, the replay of the kick was puzzling.
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    My assumption is that GM Lee Jung-nam (9th dan) is retired, so I am guessing that Master Forbes (and other instructors) saw a need to have "some where" to go to get (1) their rank recognized and (2) further rank issued down the road, in addition to the other support and recognition that the HHA provides. For Master Forbes, as the ranking instructor (I presume), I can see where it would be practical to look at organizations willing to provide this service.

    I do understand your concerns with the HHA (And GM Seo In-Sun), which is probably grist for a different thread, but at the same time, I am guessing that there aren't a lot of organizations available that will provide these services (as well as seminars and etc - one of which I see is scheduled there already). I know that the HHA does at some level of checking into the rank trail before issuing HHA rank (I had to supply copies of all of my past rank, names of instructors, and a bio of my training to get my rank recognized through the HHA). I presume Master Forbes would have done the same.

    Regardless, at this point, I am purely speculating and assuming (and you know what that means!) :D
     
  20. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    According to my friend who is still training at one of GM Lees schools, Lee does not teach at the school but all black belt gradings are still done by him. This is not at the school run by Master Forbes, but at a school up in Auckland.
     

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