Hapkido in New Zealand

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by Kave, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    Hi all, I was wondering if anyone here would be able to advise me on the quality of the Hapkido taught in New Zealand? I understand that Hapkido is an art that covers all ranges of fighting, ground, clinch and stand-up striking. I was attending a grappling tournament recently and asked my friend (who was preparing to grade for his Hapkido black belt at the time) to enter it with me. We had competitors from many different arts, Judoka, wrestlers, bjjers and sub-wrestlers, but my friend didn't feel it would suit the skill set provided by Hapkido.

    After he declined to enter I took a look at his schools website and the websites of other schools in the same organisation (http://www.hapkido.org.nz/). The Grandmaster of the "New Zealand Hapkido Federation" Lee Jung Nam seems to make all sorts of bizarre claims, such as being trained by monks and the standard "Special Forces Commando" claim that raises so many red flags.
    http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/wolftaekwondo/lee1.html
    I have found a video of a black-belt grading in the same organisation, I was wondering if anyone could tell me if the hapkido in it is legitimate or is my friend being misled about his instruction.
    Video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjc4kO5sDMQ"]Short Clip of Amanda's New Zealand Hapkido Black Belt Grading - May 2012 - YouTube[/ame]
    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    That all looked really terrible to me. Then again, that was a student being graded and not an Instructor.

    All the same, if you're interested in entering tournaments specifically for grappling, then choose a martial art that focuses on grappling. Hapkido is more suited to MMA competition than any other.
     
  3. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    Thanks for that. I am currently training at an MMA school and am not looking at taking up Hapkido, I am just concerned that what my friend is learning may not be what he believes he is being taught. I am a bit worried that his "Grandmaster" is a fake. The video looked pretty terrible to me, especially given that it was a Black Belt grading, however I have no experience whatsoever of Hapkido and therefore can't judge the quality of the Hapkido displayed.
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I don't know anything about Hapkido in New Zealand, but I can't imagne there are too many Hapkido schools around. You may be pretty limited in the offerings.

    This topic came up recently in some other threads recently, might be worth checking out this one: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111420


    I would say that Hapkido does teach all of the ranges but tends to be more of a generalist art focused on self defense. Long story short, the basic skills are there for competition but a lot of time is spent of self defense (levels of force, getting away, legal ramifications, etc.). Hapkido schools usually have pretty good standup skills and joint locks, throws and falls. Many HKD schools tend to be weak when it comes to competition ground grappling.

    If a person wants to compete, they should train to compete - a Hapkido person could do well, but they'd need to focus on competition more. Instead of trying to fit their Hapkido training to competition, I'd recommend training in a competition style.


    I loked at the main website and I actually liked the content pretty well - seems like fairly truthful Hapkido history and description. I don't know much about the GM.I looked at the angelfire site - lots of odd stuff... not uncommon for some of the older HKD claims though.

    I watched the video. For the level of the practitioner, I thought it was pretty good. Looked about like red belts I've seen at other HKD schools.

    I liked that they spar, looks like they allow low kicks and head punches (unlike some Taekwondo groups). I iked the continuous self defense and the techniques off the chair. It loks like they train pretty hard and have some resistance and sparring. I noticed they did patterns - this is relatively rare in Hapkido schools but does occur.

    Overall, the level of training looked pretty good. I doubt there are a lot of choices for Hapkido schools - this looks OK at first blush. Try a free class and see what you think.

    The only thing I'd repeat is that if you want to train for competition, go to a school that competes. Hapkido is a great art for self defense but needs additional training for competition.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  5. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    Thanks, it is good to hear the perspective of someone experienced in the art. As I said, my knowledge of Hapkido is infinitesimal, but to hear that the school is training people in a manner that is recognisably Hapkido and that is of good quality in terms of the art is very reassuring.
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    You're welcome. Like I said, it looks fairly typical for the level... maybe 2-3 years of training. Looks like pretty typical HKD training and has some attributes that are better than some schools (especially some sparring).

    I saw my post missed yours - there are some training differences between MMA and Hapkido as far as goals go, see the thread I referenced earlier. Keep in mind that those different goals will make the training look different to what you train for.
     
  7. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    Thanks for that. I understand that Hapkido training is quite different to MMA training due to the influences of competition, however my friend is keen on testing his skills and is thinking of making a switch to MMA after getting his black belt. Recently "takedown only" comps have been added to the local competition circuit, in these comps the only way to gain points is to take your opponent of his feet by throws/sweeps etc. The rounds are short (only 2 minutes) and the first to get 3 takedowns wins. There is no ground grappling at all. Do you think I should suggest this to him as an interim way for a Hapkido practitioner to test some of his skills before changing styles, or do you think that this type of competetion would be unsuited to Hapkido practitioners?

    Sample rules:http://nzgrappler.co.nz/takedown-only-tournament-rules/
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    To be honest, if the competition is well run (and well-refereed), I would highly recommend it.

    The "takedown only" comps should be good for a HKD person, usually they develop good balance and takedown resistance as well as good throws and such.

    Doing a "regular" MMA match/competition/training/rolling would be good too, even if just to highlight potential areas that need improvement. A good HKDist should be able to adapt but they will need good training under the competition rule set too. I think if he earns his 1st dan in Hapkido, he should be able to start his transition to MMA with a decent foundation; and if he does a bit of competition like you recommend, he should get a realistic idea of what's strong and what needs work.
     
  9. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    There is little transparency about the Hapkido rank. No mention on a variety of sites where training was done or from whom rank was received. The GM spent time in Vietnam, so maybe he trained under Ji Han Jae, but no information is given.

    It does say that "their Hapkido is based on military Hapkido" whatever that is. It looks like they have a strong Taekwondo connection, not so much in Hapkido, so the r
    "Rank" may only be school rank in a cluster of techniques that resemble Hapkido.

    Video was interesting, I thought the sparring part was telling...why spend all the time learning techniques only to "spar" like a mediocre kick boxer?

    The Hapkido looks dubious here.
     
  10. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    I find it interesting that two high ranking Hapkido practitioners have two completely different views on the quality of Hapkido shown here.

    Anyway, from what I can semi-independantly verify, before coming to New Zealand the Grandmaster Lee Jung Nam was a Taekwondo examiner working in Singapore. He was introduced to the New Zealand ITF Taekwondo guys in 1975 by the Korean Embassy. His aim was to get the NZ ITF Taekwondo guys to switch to WTF.

    There were some political manouverings, some switched and some refused. In 1976 he set up the New Zealand Taekwondo Federation, and sometime later he set up New Zealands first Hapkido organisation "Kukjae Hapkido" which later was renamed "New Zealand Taekwondo Federation".

    GM Lees Taekwondo background seems somewhat easier to track than his Hapkido background, I wouldn't be suprised if his Hapkido is strongly influenced by his Taekwondo.
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Heh heh heh... that should give you an idea if just how many different Hapkido and Hapkido-based groups there are out there.

    The group Kevin is affiliated with is a fairly orthodox one that harkins back to the early days of Hapkido. (Jung KI Kwan has some awesome black belt instructors out there and there are some great videos on Youtube - I haven't seen much as far as what color belts look like in Jung Ki Kwan, but the Black Belts are very good).

    My background goes to training in Korea for a while with an IHF school (the group that has cross ties with Aikido, although I learned traditional Hapkido) and to the (Hapkido-based hybrid art) Combat Hapkido, which takes the Hapkido core and adds in useful stuff from other systems for self defense needs.

    From that perspective, I think it's not a bad highlight of what seems to be a 2-3 year student. Her patterns/forms look good (although slow and lacking power - common at that level) and I like that the school spars and does more free style self defense. Her breakfalls and dives looked pretty good. I am looking at it from the perspective of from the various schools I've seen (visits, training, seminars, cross training), her skills look about right for her level. It looks like she would survive a fall or throw, get someone off her, and be able to do some damage in a standup situation. I also liked her awareness in the knife defense, she didn't bring the knife back across herself, she stripped it away and didnt hand it back, she looked around and stayed attentive to the environment as she defended, and so on. My feeling is that she has decent skills for her level and if she transferred to another HKD school, she'd do all right.

    I imagine part of what Kevin is looking at is a "Grandmaster" with no substantiated lineage, who has probably blended a bit of Taekwondo into his practice, and who has gone his own way (I wondered where his rank came from). As such, is this "true" Hapkido or "relative" Hapkido blended and shaped by a person who may or may not have had the background to do so? I wuld bet that from Kevin's perspective, this would be a HUGE red flag. (If I am making any wrong assumptions, please feel free to swat me Kevin!)
     
  12. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    No, I think you are pretty close Thomas.

    The GM of this organization seems to have high legit rank in TKD from the WTF. He also lists himself as a 9th Dan in Hapkido with no mention of training, or who ranked him.
    Then there is the mention of "where our Hapkido comes from". Well, all Hapkido comes from the same place - if theirs does not, its not Hapkido. This is becoming more frequent; an instructor with high rank in one art claiming high rank in Hapkido when they don't have it. But because we have allowed this stuff for so long without calling people on it, it has become a real problem.

    Video of technique is something I rarely comment on as far as how someone looks, but again, "sparring" in my school is done with techniques from the art, not Kickboxing, why train to fight one way, then when its time to fight many seem to want to imitate Kickboxing?

    Now, all that being said, if the GM is pressed for certification, I will bet he can get a snazzy certificate produced in a flash....that still means very little in my opinion without validation of training.
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I spent a pleasureable hour this morning looking through Dr. He-young Kimm's History of Hapkido to see if I could find any mention of GM Lee Jung Nam. I checked the studnet lists (abridged) of various Kwans, the narration of develpment of the Kwans and their significant students, the descriptions of key instructors and who they produced, as well as the key instructors/descriptions of leading Hapkido people within Korea and overseas. I found no mention of him at all. Granted, it's not an all-inclusive book, but if he's an old school 9th dan who is infuential in New Zealand Hapkido, I'm surprised there wouldn't be a mention.

    I am curious who he trained under and where his rank comes from.
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I found a much more well written bio of GM Lee Jung Nam on http://www.hapkido.co.nz/About_Hapkido.aspx
    There are some old photos too.

    It mentions that his roots are from Bong Hwa Kwan (I am not familiar with this one) and possibly through the World Hapkido Federation (WHF). His senior student (Callum Forbes) also holds rank through the World Hanminjok Association (GM Seo In Sun) and they mention an affiliation to the Kidohae (I presume the one that is linked to the Hanminjok Association).

    "Grand Master Lee Jung Nam

    GM Lee was born in Kyangju, a city situated next to Moo Doung San mountain. Beginning TaeKwonDo (TKD) and Hapkido training at age 7, he earned his 1st Dan black belt at age 13. GM Lee's training was based first and foremost on self defence. The original style GM Lee was trained in was Bong Hwa Kwan, one of the several styles that evolved into TKD and Hapkido as we know it today.

    GM Lee won a technical scholarship at high school and went on to study at Chosun university, majoring in physical education. After graduating he set up his own dojang in Kyangju City. Shortly afterwards, GM Lee became eligible for compulsory Army service. He signed up as an officer and began with a one year course at the Army's training academy in 1959. Graduating with the rank of first lieutenant he went on to begin another 12 month course - this time training as a commando in the Special Forces.

    Because of his skill and diligence in training others GM Lee earned a great deal of respect from people of all ranks within the South Korean army. When the Vietnam War broke out South Korea assisted South Vietnam and ultimately GM Lee was sent to Vietnam in 1966 to help train their commandos. He held the positions of Director of Education and Technical Director of the Vietnam TKD Federation.

    GM Lee left the Korean army in 1971 with the rank of captain (Special Forces) and took up the position of Director of the Bong Hwa Hapkido and TKD Gymnasium in Seoul, Korea. The Bong Hwa Gymnasium was affiliated to the Korea Hapkido Association at the time which was later to become one of the pre-cursors to the modern Korea Hapkido Federation.

    GM Lee arrived in New Zealand in 1975 and began teaching TKD and Hapkido. He started at the YMCA in Wellington with seven people and soon expanded by running special courses for the police, traffic officers, army, air force, prison officers, and women's groups. For the first two years GM Lee devoted all his time to establishing TKD and Hapkido while his wife and three children stayed in Korea with relatives.

    GM Lee founded Lee’s Hapkido Academy and it did not take long for him to establish new clubs by helping his senior students to become instructors. GM Lee spent the first five years concentrating his efforts and establishing TKD and Hapkido clubs around Wellington and the lower North Island before expanding elsewhere in New Zealand. In 1991 GM Lee moved from Wellington to Auckland to concentrate his efforts in promoting TKD and Hapkido to a larger population base.

    During his time in NZ GM Lee has also worked on extending his own qualifications, going from 6th Dan black belt when he arrived, to 9th Dan and the title of Grandmaster which he graded for in 1991. The higher Dan gradings are not just physical tests but involve a great deal of written work - similar to a university degree. His last grading, for 9th Dan black belt, involved what amounted to a thesis on various counter attack techniques against other martial art styles such as kung-fu and karate, training techniques, and training equipment that maximise performance and remove the risk of injury.

    During the first decade of the new century, GM Lee began to select people within both Hapkido and TKD to pass all his knowledge and skill to, so that he could then step back and take more of an advisory role. As part of this, in July 2006 GM Lee formally passed his leadership of Hapkido to Callum Forbes who had already been acting informally in this role since 1995.

    When Grand Master Lee passed on the leadership of our style of Hapkido to Callum it was called Kukjae Hapkido. However in 2010 Callum changed this to New Zealand Hapkido to reflect its adaptation to the New Zealand environment. While we still acknowledge our style’s lineage to South Korea, the reality is that we are now a New Zealand martial arts style.

    Our connection with South Korea remains through our logo – the Korean Sea Eagle. This particular rendition of the Hapkido Eagle was brought to New Zealand by Grand Master Lee and has remained unchanged "
     
  15. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    Here: http://islandtaekwondocentre.wordpress.com/about-us/master-daniel-sng/
    is a reference to Master Daniel Sng (president of ITF Singapore) having received his first degree Taekwondo blackbelt under Director Lee Jung Nam of the Korea Tae Kwon Do Bong Hwa Gymnasium. This seems to match up with the information Thomas found.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
  16. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    Hapkido came to the Netherlands via New Zealand. A student of master Lee Jung-nam migrated back to the Netherlands and started teaching hapkido in 1979.
    Later we switched to IHF-style HKD.
    I have been in touch with Callum later when I was digging into the history of HKD in the Netherlands. A very nice person to talk with, very amiable.

    Why not contact him directly and roll with him a afternoon or evening to judge the material taught instead of watching a youtube video?
     
  17. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    Unfortunately I am rather uninformed about Hapkido so wouldn't be able to judge the material fairly. To be honest I don't have much of a vested interest in this, I looked into it because I was concerned that a friend was being misled by a unscrupulous Grandmaster. I am more concerned that the Grandmaster of the style is misleading people about his qualifications to teach, than whether he is producing students with competent self-defence abilities. That said, the more I have researched the more interesting it has become, mainly because so many red flags are being thrown up.

    When I hear claims like:
    or
    it rings warning bells for me. It is the sort of claims that many martial arts frauds make. This doesn't mean it is not true, just that I would love to find any corroborating evidence.

    On top of this, the stated timeframe of training in Hapkido and Taekwondo from the age of seven, then going on to study Physical Education at Chosun University, setting up his own Dojang after finishing University then getting drafted into the army in 1959. Assuming he was 21 when he was drafted (giving a bare minimum amount of time to finish university and set up a Dojang) that would suggest he started training in Hapkido in 1945 (at the latest). There are obvious issues with this.

    There are a lot of issues with what is claimed. Claims like:

    1). In 1966 GM Lee held the positions of Director of Education and Technical Director of the Vietnam Taekwondo Federation
    2). During his time in Vietnam GM Lee was awarded the Education Medal from the South Vietnamese government
    3). GM Lee was was awarded the In Han Medal and Bronze Star Medal in recognition of his services to Korea.
    4). GM Lee left the Korean army in 1971...and took up the position of Director of the Bong Hwa Hapkido and Taekwondo Gymnasium in Seoul, Korea
    5). GM Lee graduated from Chosun University, with a major in Physical Education.
    (all claims from http://www.nztaekwondofed.org/main/taekwondo.php).

    Should all be easily verifiable. Unfortunately I don't speak or read Korean which adds a level of difficulty for me. Furthermore GM Lee has graded from 6th to 9th Dan (he claims 9th Dan in both Hapkido and Taekwondo) while he has been in New Zealand, I would love to know whether these grades were provided by an external organisation, or if he issued himself grades as Grandmaster of his own system. I would generally expect this information to be publicly available on the organisations website, but I cannot find any records anywhere. I cant even find evidence of the military decorations such as the "In Han Medal" existing, let alone him having been awarded it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  18. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    The claim is that he was a 6th dan when he moved to New Zealand, then the article goes on about his 9th dan test. Not that he jumped from 6th to 9th.

    I would have my concern about a seven year old boy starting his formal martial arts training at that time in Korea as well. All the other claims might be hard to check, and you would have to ask GM Lee to show the medals and certificates etc. etc.
    The story typically reads as your average 80's promotional article as you would find them in a issue of Black Belt ;) and yes, I would take it with a grain of salt.

    However, it does not mean that the hapkido taught there is not valid or not good enough. Also, GM Lee doesn't actively teach any more.
    The best way to figure out if they offer some good quality self defense is to go there and train with them.
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Ah-ha, I thought I had seen something on this a while ago:

    "Myung Jae Nam- joined the movement of Ji Han Jae in Seoul and was one of the co- founders in 1965 of the Korea Hapkido Association. Myung Jae Nam became the president of the headquarters of the International Hapkido Federation (I.H.F.) in Korea. He also is known as one who tried to bridge the gap between Korean and Japanese traditions by means of the by him developed hankido, which is a mixture of Korean hapkido and Japanese aikido techniques. Until his death in 1999 he was the leader of the Jaenam Musul Won Foundation. and the head of the International H.K.D Federation. which had become the new name of the International Hapkido Federation (I.H.F.)Myung Jae -nam contributed to the development of Hapkido in Europe in the 90s of the twentieth century, as he had become the immediate teacher and promotor of Robert Pellikaan , who introduced and developed Hapkido in the Netherlands and western Europe from early 1979 to late 1993, until he returned to New Zealand.

    Robert Pellikaan


    Main article: Robert Pellikaan



    Robert Pellikaan-first introduced Hapkido to Leidschendam in the Netherlands in March 1979 when Pellikaan returned from New Zealand where he had been instructed in Hapkido by Lee Jung -nam . Robert became an International Hapkido Federation (IHF) International Instructor under Grandmaster Myong Jae Nam ( 명재남 )( I.H.F president in South Korea) and Robert founded the A.N.H.S ( Hapkido Foundation) and the H.B.N in the Netherlands ((Hapkido Association Netherlands)) and he was later appointed European president by Myong Jae Nam. Robert started teaching in 1979 and in 1980 the first Hapkido graduations were held. Myung Jae -nam visited the Netherlands many times where he also introduced his own developed hankido and hamkundo styles. The H.B.N. was later renamed the Dutch Hapkido Federation. In late 1993 Pellikaan returned to New Zealand where he established the World Hapkido Federation Incorporated (WHF) specialising in Traditional Hapkido as originally taught in Korea in the early 1900's. Robert Pellikaan donated his Dutch A.N.H.S Hapkido schools (Dojangs) and the Dutch Hapkido Federation over to his most outstanding pupil Leon de Heus, who became the Technical Director and Thymen de Heus who was appointed President..

    The World Hapkido Federation Incorporated (WHF) follows the traditional Hapkido roots coming from Choi, Yong-Sul through Ji Han-Jae. Lee Jung Nam and and Myong Jae Nam. Ji Han-Jae claims that he had changed the name into Hapkido as it became a way of life for him as well as was the case for many other Hapkido greats like Han Bong-Soo, Lim Hyun-Soo, Suh In-Seo, Suh In-Hyuk, Lee Joo-Bang and many more other masters. Through Robert Pellikaan the WHF is affiliated with Myung, Jae-Nam and the "International H.K.D Federation" (International Hapkido Federation) since 1981.

    IHF (International Hapkido Federation Korean World Headquarters) The I.H.F (International Hapkido Federation) was founded by the late Kuk Sa Nim- Myung Jae-Nam, who devoted his entire live to the dvelopment of Hapkido.With support , agreement and guidance of Grandmaster Myung Jae Nam, Robert Pellikaan founded the HBN later named the NHF (Netherlands HKD Federation) in 1979 in the Netherlands. The IHF was founded in 1981. In the years after the first HKD Games Myung Jae Nam travelled around the world to promote the International H.K.D. Federation. In 1983 Robert Pellikaan was appointed by Grandmaster -Myung Jae Nam as the offical I.H.F. representative for western Europe. By then Robert Pellikaan had grown the Federation into a sizeable number of high performing Hapkido Schools and also taught Hapkido at the USA airforce based in Soesterberg in Holland. Robert Pellikaan also developed and wrote the full Hapkido Curriculum and Hapkido Competition Sparring system in Dutch and in English.In late 1993 Grandmaster Robert Pellikaan returned to New Zealand where he founded the WHF ( World HAPKIDO Federation Incorporated) and donated the NHF in the Netherlands over to Thymen de Heus with Leon de Heus as Head - Instructor On the 3rd of august 1999 Kuk Sa Nim Myung Jae Nam died in Yong-In Korea. His spirit still lives on in his art and the hearts of thousands of hapkido practioners all around the world."

    http://worldhapkidofederationincorporated.com/home.html
     
  20. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    Just to make sure: Pellikaan joined the IHF after he moved from New Zealand back to the Netherlands. What he learned in New Zealand from GM Lee was not IHF style hapkido and certainly not hankido.
    If I am not mistaken GM Lee was a student of Ji Han-jae but some of the early material I learned had a Kuksool flavor (our kibonsoo for example).
    After Myung Jae-nam's visit in 1989 we completely switched to the IHF curriculum. I started hapkido in 1988 so I only learned the old system for a short time.
     

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