Han Shi Yi Quan shaking exercise

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by 23rdwave, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    This video shows a body shaking exercise we use in Han Shi Yi Quan to train for the moment of attack. We want to "explode" with every part of the body moving as one unit. Every part contributes 1%. We want to remain at optimum neutral, inside and out. If I stand too tall I can only go down. If I am in a wide horse stance I can only go up. Inside it's as if the ball drops. Sam Tam would compare it dropping ice into a glass of water. The ice falls to the bottom and the water level rises. The shaking is meant to loosen us up for that split second moment when we first move. Although the torso is doing most of the shaking the legs are driving the movement.

    [ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lCmuui0zjpQ[/ame]

    Here is how it is used against a clinch and wrist grab.

    [ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aRzWxZie6w0[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    The first video is set to private.



    As to the second one, you went over the wrist grav but not so much the clinch. Also, you shouldn't assume that once someone tries to grab you and you shake them off, that they won't immediately try and regrip. Nobody gives up on the first attempt in combat.
     
  3. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    The first video is now public.

    The video is a demo. In reality you would shake and strike all at once. It's not 1-2 or 1-2-3, it would be 1-1-1.
     
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    That first video is absolute gold! Looking all Mile Cyrus and stuff :p

    Can you post a more realistic representation?
     
  5. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Chadderz you may be being a tad overly critical. Yes the video looks daft, but there are plenty of things that one does in wrestling practice that look daft or down right perverse to an outsider. None the less they do have a practical function.

    What we are looking at is an exercise for practicing producing and controlling short power. Short power is found in all arts including boxing and wrestling. It begins with contracting some muscle groups. This stretches other muscles groups. Elastic energy is stored in the tension of these stretched muscle groups. When the tension is released the stored elastic energy is released in a short explosive movement.

    The ability to generate power very quickly over a short distance is helpful in all sorts of grappling, throwing, and striking situations. But it is difficult to get the correct balance and timing of tension and relaxation. Get it wrong and you look like Mile Sirus. Get it right and you still look like Mile Sirus but you also have a very helpful tool in the toolbox.

    Here is an example of the same thing just done a little differently.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhseLwvFWvE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhseLwvFWvE[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2015
  6. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Thank you for your condsidered opinion, Tom. In Han Shi Yi Quan we are trying to avoid muscle contraction (relaxation/contraction) by having bao throughout the body and leading with the fingertips. If we don't have bao and allow muscle contraction in the upper body (empty) our power will scatter.
     
  7. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    These videos are yet more rubbish, giving IMA a bad name.

    Sorry, do you actually understand how muscles work? :bang:

    @Tom Bayley,
    I think Chadderz is being just the right amount of critical.
     
  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Literally every time you move anything a muscle con tracts and another relaxes. It's impossible avoid it other than not moving at all.
     
  9. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I am not familiar with the word bao or its meaning. Could you please explain what you mean by

    And

    Thanks.
     
  10. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Holding the bao

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    We use tendon strength which is engaged by grasping with the fingertips. When embracing the tree one embraces not the tree in front of one nor the forest but the entire horizon if not the moon and stars. Embrace everything. And hold it. Tendons are 9x as strong as muscles. Tendon strength is internal strength.

    The bao is in the open joints. From the tips of the fingers, tiger's mouth, wrists, elbows, etc. all of them embracing/holding while maintaining a hollow/soft upper body. Not relaxed, as some would describe it, because one still has muscle tonus. The torso should be like a sail. When one makes contact with one's opponent it fills up. The feet and arms do not retreat. The hollow upper body allows one to maintain the structure without yielding.

    One wants to move as one unit, all at once. Not 1-2-3 but 1-1-1. Individual movements and techniques will make it hard to maintain the body state (zhuangtai) and one's power will scatter.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2015
  11. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Han Jing Chen and Dan Harden agree with me and Chadderz agrees with you. That sounds about right.
     
  12. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    23rd wave. thanks for the clarification.

    When you look at the video of Tid Sin above. Where do you see the power being generated and how do you see it being transferred?
     
  13. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    The movements themselves look externally driven. I don't know what he's doing with his mind, breath or other routes to power. That's why they call it internal. He is going from relaxation to contraction (there's a lot of contraction) but it should be all relaxation (substitute whichever term soft, hollow, etc. you like). A soft body is alive, mobile, fast and spontaneous while a hard body is stiff, rooted, slow and inefficient. There's nothing wrong with muscle but it sometimes needs to be quiet and just listen.
     
  14. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I'm confused. In one post you are saying that the practitioner should not be relaxed, and then in another one you are saying that they should be. It does seem like a rather fundamental distinction.
     
  15. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Some ima people hate the term "relaxed". That's why I also used the terms "soft" or "hollow".
     
  16. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    The problem when looking at iron wire is that their is a lot of external muscle action to do with the health and conditioning benefits of the form that are ancillary to the power generation. This accounts for the majority of tension that you see. but it has nothing to do with the creation and transfer of power or what drives the movements.

    If you look beyond this external tension you may be able to see that whenever he his is in motion he is relaxed / "hollow". Whenever a strike is delivered it is done relaxed / Hollow, listening with the entire body. Most of the power is generated separate from the movement and stored in the tendons.

    Three principle areas are involved in power generation. the legs / groin, the lower dantien (muscles of the pelvic girdle and so on) and the upper dantien (muscles in the chest and back).

    Movements are based around two balls. A ball that expands / contracts from the upper tantien. Although this may be disguised by a twist of the waist. And a ball that expands /contracts from the lower tantien. (as in your example above). Opening movements expand the chest so an in breath is used. Contracting movements compress the chest so an outbreath is used.

    e.g 10 s the ball is contracted energy is stored in tension in the back and tantien, 11 s the ball expands stored energy is released in a relaxed body. 13s the ball is open tension is then stored in the lower tantien which drives the movement at 14 sec. The whole form is in fact a succession of expanding and contracting of the bao.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhseLwvFWvE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhseLwvFWvE[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
  17. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Yes, this is the problem with looking at an ima video. I will watch it again.
     
  18. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    That doesn't really explain the contradiction between your two statements, so I'm still at a loss to understand what you are trying to get at.

    As far as the terminology itself is concerned, I think 'relaxed' is the best term because it is simple and easy for anyone to grasp - provided that they undersatand that 'relaxed' really does mean 'relaxed' and not 'limp' or 'floppy'! I think 'soft' does the same job, but is more open to being misinterpreted. As for 'hollow', that is simply confusing. If someone told me to be 'hollow' I wouldn't know what the hell they were on about! :D
     
  19. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    I agree. People are uncomfortable with different terminology to describe the same thing. For some, "relaxed" means taiji noodle arms. For you, "hollow" is problematic. In this case the lower body is full and the upper body is hollow.
     

Share This Page