No Crucible I don't mind at all, thanks for taking the time to reply. In fact thanks to Tellner and you for explaining about kun-tao. It's always nice to pick up info and opinions!
*sigh*. I guess I'm not being clear.... Kun Tao/Kuntaw/Kune Dao/etc. means a lot of different things depending on where you are. In Indonesia one of the more common meanings is "Chinese martial arts as they are practiced around here". So not all authentic Kun Tao is from Mindanao. Lingusitically the words Kun Tao are derived from the Chinese.
No problem friend, it was the way your post was written, Thats the problem with the internet, easy for pionts to be mistaken . Cheers!
Hey 2 anybody who reads this I have done a few seminars of silat and been extremely impressed with it the instructor is Steve Benitez and his whole understanding speed prosision and the use of multiple kicks and stricks was just awsome his intensity is on another plain just wondered if anybody else has experienced this from other silat instructors as. Regards to eveerybody
According to Ben Largusa /Floro Villabrial (probably one of the best practitioners of Kali ) KALI is derived from Indonesian SILAT.
Silatyogi.....Hello, *sigh* Please show me one Indonesian system that does kali. Please show me one native Philippine silat system(Lacoste kali, Inosanto blend and Maphilindo don't count) that does kali. Not hybrid systems developed offshore, but actual arts developed in their countries of origin passed down from previous generations. GM Villibrille's certificate from the govenor general of the Philippines says 'grandmaster of eskrima' not kali. Villibrille's Uncles and relatives were eskrimadors not kalistas. His contempories, drinking and training buddies on the docks of Tondo (GM Mena, GM Ilustrisimo, GM Cabales, GM Dizon) were eskrima and arnis players. If central and northern Philippine weapon systems want to call themselves kali thats fine, but if you use kali in the same sentence as silat it should be noted that there is no kali in southern Philippines. Why would kali be derived from Indonesian silat, when none of the native pracititioners of silat in the Philippines have ever heard of the term unless it was from some central or northern Philippine kali player?
#66 Today, 08:00 PM Crucible Valued Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 487 Silatyogi.....Hello, *sigh* Please show me one Indonesian system that does kali. Please show me one native Philippine silat system(Lacoste kali, Inosanto blend and Maphilindo don't count) that does kali. Not hybrid systems developed offshore, but actual arts developed in their countries of origin passed down from previous generations. GM Villibrille's certificate from the govenor general of the Philippines says 'grandmaster of eskrima' not kali. Villibrille's Uncles and relatives were eskrimadors not kalistas. His contempories, drinking and training buddies on the docks of Tondo (GM Mena, GM Ilustrisimo, GM Cabales, GM Dizon) were eskrima and arnis players. If central and northern Philippine weapon systems want to call themselves kali thats fine, but if you use kali in the same sentence as silat it should be noted that there is no kali in southern Philippines. Why would kali be derived from Indonesian silat, when none of the native pracititioners of silat in the Philippines have ever heard of the term unless it was from some central or northern Philippine kali player? >> In two seperate ocassions I was told by both by Guru Dan Inosanto & Guru Cass Magda that The name Kali was created by Ben Largusa. It is true that you say "KALI" doesn't exist in the Islands of the Philippines per say but escrima does. The Philipino people have roots from Indonesia. There are elements of SILAT in their styles of both weaponry and emptyhand. Look at old video footage of Villabraile, Juanito Lacoste even Angel Cabales, Tujon Leo Gaje a lot of their movements have very very similar movements found in pencak silat. Ofcourse there is also a huge Spanish influence in the way the ecrimadors use their swords and stick but when you get to the knife, the empty hand , flexible weapons etc it looks a lot like silat. anyhow I have never been to the philipino islands so I only know what my teachers here in the US have taught me. take care Santiago
If Ben Largusa invented the name Kali for a type of Filipino stick fighting then why has it never been told and why does most of the Filipino masters over here use the word to differentiate themselves from Arnis & Escrima and why do they all say it's from the Southern Filipines? Here are 2 more Filipino masters that I know says Kali is from the Southern Filipines and is of Silat origin: Bo Sayoc (from Sayoc Kali) and Ray Dionaldo (from Filipino Combat Systems). Why would all the people that use the word Kali conspire to use the name Ben Largusa invented for his own style? Just doesn't make any sense. What makes sense is that it is a highly secretive style from the Southern Filipines and why most Filipinos have never heard of it. Sincerely, Teacher: Eddie Ivester
ever notice how these kali guys from the philippines come from the visayas and not mindanao (which is the southern most islands in the philippines). the most prevalent systems there are called silat. it is silat that is secretively taught in the south. it is also coincidental that mindanao is where most muslims in the philippines. that they royal sultanates there are related to the rest of the sultanates in south east asia.
nicely put, brothr. in mindanao, especially in the sulu islands, emphasis is bladed weapons and silat- sometimes erroneously referred to as just "kuntaw". in fact, the Tausugs have this mindset that Kuntaw and Silat are just one and the same; though from what i've learned and experienced, these systems have overlapped already, plus an assortment of other influencesl like, Indian, Javanese styles, etc...
Something to consider is that "Eskrima" and "Arnis" are both SPANISH BASED words. Now, what was the art called BEFORE the Spanish occupation? If you don't like "Kali", fine, but don't throw "Arnis" or "Eskrima" up as your argument, unless you are saying that the SPANISH named the art! Don't start your journey looking for the answer in THIS century (or the last) it isn't there. Modern Tagalog won't reflect what the art once was, there is too much Spanish influence in the language. Same for Bahasa Indonesia, the Dutch influence is obvious in many grammatical instances. "Why would kali be derived from Indonesian silat, when none of the native pracititioners of silat in the Philippines have ever heard of the term unless it was from some central or northern Philippine kali player?" The word for river in Indonesian is "Kali". Also, it is the word for time. A current theory is that the PRE-SPANISH term for this art was "Kali" due to it's approach to "Flow" (What a river does). The look of the "Flow" was likely very similar to the Indonesian approach centuries ago, when the people were closer, before they "crossed the river" (Taga-Ilog, or Tagalog). As the Filipino culture evolved further away from the Indo-Malay, the arts probably evolved as well, forming a slightly different look and feel. Both arts (Kali and Silat) very obviously share a mutual parent. Both arts began centuries ago. Both arts have evolved due to exposure to TWO DIFFERENT cultures (Dutch for the Indos, Spanish for the Flips). Finding a modern theory for this argument seems to be a dead end, what is needed is a historical approach, with a view as to what was happening all along the archipelago in the past 300-400 years. There are many theories to this argument. No one can say who is right by current evidence presented as the ONLY facts available. Saying things like "Not hybrid systems developed offshore, but actual arts developed in their countries of origin passed down from previous generations" is a loaded staement, because there are LOTS of things no longer in existence due to Spanish and Dutch rule. For instance, I could say "Please show me ONE PERSON who can accurately translate the Laguna Copperplate inscription". No such person exists. Does this mean that the Filipinos never had a pre-Spanish written language? Just something different to think about. The information is there if you look beyond the "martial arts".
Bobby, I would agree with most of what you said. What I was taught in the Silat stick fighting that I learned was that you flow like water (kali)(= the Bahasa word for river) I was told that if you throw a stone into a river it will change course by going over, around, under or through but it will still flow and never stop! Which is the art of stick fighting, never stopping and continuing to flow, every block is just a change in course and every parry is just a different path to flow. That is the reason I named the stick fighting I teach Indonesian Kali! It was 2 fold: 1. A lot of stick fighters in America know what Kali is and it's different from Arnis & Escrima. (regardless of what some may say) 2. Kali is what I referred to the stick fighting I learned (note above). I wanted to keep the Indonesian origin of my art so I called it Indonesian Kali to distinguish it from Filipino Kali. Like I have always said, before some Non-Malay drew an imaginary line in the water they were the same people! The language, culture & fighting arts were the same! The Southern Filipines would have the most Indonesian influence because they were closer and why they would have more Indo/Malay words than the North. Hence why the Southern Filipino's would use the word Kali, an Indonesian word. Maybe they cam to the same conclusion about the flow of water and named it Kali or perhaps before Silat, a relatively newer word for the art it was called Kali. I was never told the Indonesian stick fighting I was taught was called Kali! No it was Silat, there was no differentiating stick, knife or hand to hand. They were all the same art, Silat! So that is my take on the subject. It is done with thought, without bias and simple deductive reasoning to form these conclusions. Sincerely, Teacher: Eddie Ivester
Hi Eddie, thanks for the reply, "I was never told the Indonesian stick fighting I was taught was called Kali! No it was Silat, there was no differentiating stick, knife or hand to hand. They were all the same art, Silat!" Same here, in Bandung the approach to stick, knife and empty hand flow is identical to the Filipino approach. Also, at last year's Silat camp, Bambang was watching me warm up doing some double machete work, and he said, verbatim; "That's your Kali, it looks good". He not only recognized it, he identified it by NAME. Not Eskrima. Not Arnis. I was a little surprised he even knew what it was, as we have never talked about it, although he knows I train FMA as well as Silat. About that imaginary line in the water, many Filipino words are identical in Bahasa as well, "Payong" and "Gunting" being one of them, and they mean the same thing martially as well, in both cultures. I could go on with other grammatical examples, but if you study the language, you'll see what I mean. This is one of the things that leads me to draw the conclusion I have today. "Conclusion" probably isn't the right word, maybe "Closest thing I have that I recognize as probably true". I wouldn't dismiss the other theories out of hand either, i.e. "Kali comes from the Kalis sword" "Inosanto made it up" "Villabrille made it up" "Has something to do with the Hindu goddess" "It's a compound of two words put together from "LIhok" and "KAmot"", etc. As I said before, since we have no definative source, we have no definative truth. One other question that I think should be addressed: Why "Kali"? I mean, if it IS a made-up term for public marketing, or exposure to Americans, what on Earth good would come of calling it "Kali" instead of "Eskrima", or the more well known "Arnis"? Or just "Filipino Martial Arts". What motivation does anybody have for saying "This is...Ummm...Lemme think...Aha! KALI!" There has to be a BASIS for the existence of the word, even if it was meant to be a descriptive title and nothing more.
Kali This discussion about the word Kali is thought provoking!... but what I found out http://www.geocities.com/dennisservaes/serrada_magazine.html is that the term kali pre- existed Ben Largusa's teacher Villabrille as a base or root word. Tja-kali-li etc. Tjakalili is the Mother Filipino Martial ART of the Philippines with Kali being the base root word. Kali was easier for most Americans to say so Villabreli was one of the first to use that term. In the Southern Philippines it is my understanding that Silat and Kuntao are the predominat martial arts there, and if you asked about Kali they would until recently tell you that they "do not do that one." Dennis P.S. Join my group at csemt@yahoogroups.com csemt-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and post about Kali
as it is, in the southern philippines, especially in jolo sulu, when we say "Kuntaw", it already connotes the Silat techniques/arts being practised in that area combined w/ the various chinese-influenced combat methods that have been part & parcel of the whole fighting system of the indigeneous Tausugs. this has been true way before the coming of the Spanish in the Philippines...
Actually, I think what most people would consider Kali existed throughout the Philippines, but just not by that term. Kuntao is a blend of Silat and Chinese Martial Arts, and probably Filipino martial arts i.e. Kali by whatever name it was known at the time.
Quick question I noticed that you are from Hull and I have been looking for Silat classes in the Hull area? Whereabouts is it that you train? Or where does your instructor do lessons? Thanks.
Given that you're responding to a post from 2005, from a member who's last activity was in 2009, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a response if I was you.
Silat was born in Nusantara (maritime states of southeast asia), and 80%+ of Nusantara is Indonesia's territory
