Best MA for self defence

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Jab Cross Hook, Sep 12, 2017.

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  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I didn't mean to say it was optimum for SD, just that in terms of weapons it is more optimum for SD than most popular Japanese or Chinese martial arts (which isn't saying much ;) ).

    Certainly the skills and training methods would transfer more easily to a SD focused curriculum than the majority of arts.
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    So you aren't talking about HEMA then? Sounds more like Barititsu to me

    Actually yes it has

    Rarely - and the firearms and knives being used are different to, along with the individuals using them and their willingness to do so

    Badly - far better choices for "improv"

    But why put out an opinion that has no actual articulation behind it? it's a bit odd tbh

    You haven't trained in it, have no experience in it and no experience of the situations it will address - so any recommendation made is already not really substantiated.
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    yawara bo, bo, hanbo et all all have much more transfer from an SD perspective - pen, hockey stick, pool cue, walking cane, golf club are almost direct substitutes

    What are you substituting for a Grosse Messer? :)
  4. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    Detour danger, but you piqued my interest. I have no exposure to HEMA but I tried kendo for a while -- armor always, and weapon always, just like you're saying. You're right that people don't carry swords or even long sticks with them on the sidewalk, but, those kendo guys hit ridiculously hard and fast. And they have very aggressive attitudes. I got the impression that one-against-one in a fist fight, all of the instructors and some of the upper-ranked students would do pretty well. Granted they're not used to blocking punches per se, but they're used to holding their hands up and stopping things that are coming at them -- and hitting back crazy fast with aggression. And like Hannibal always says, that sort of pressure testing counts for a lot.

    (shrug) Have you thought of it that way? Or is HEMA just not a viable background for a fist fight in your experience?
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm not talking about the weapons themselves, but the methodology and ethos behind the training, as well as skills such as distancing, timing, accuracy under pressure, intensity etc...

    Given an armoured hanbo sparring match between someone who does awesome crisp hanbo kata, and someone who regularly spars in their HEMA club but has never touched a hanbo, I know who I'd be betting on.
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    Kendo is good for SD then?
    And fencing?
    What about Halberd?

    Most Koryu schools incorporate partner drills and exchanges too - I would suggest most of the "karate weapon" stuff you have seen isn't, and is instead the godawful majorette dances that have made their way into tournaments
  7. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    It depends on the specific area of HEMA which someone has studied. I would say that someone who has studied dagger vs dagger will likely be better at unarmed defence than someone who has mainly studied spear, for example. Longsword and dagger has quite a lot of distance closing and close range striking and grappling, but the main purpose is to get to a point where you can use your weapon to end the fight safely.

    Sabre has less of this because of the focus on lunge and recover, which might lend itself nicely to a single punch to the face, but might not work too well if the fight proceeds to a grapple.

    Overall, I'd say it's usually the wrong sort of pressure testing for self defence. Give a HEMA guy a weighted stick and (s)he'll probably wipe out most attackers, but without the preferred weapon I suspect it would be like seeing a fish out of water.
  8. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    Thanks. :)
  9. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    The old European treatise contain wrestling and grappling ,mainly standing, that was essential and went hand in hand with sword and dagger etc. Grabs, holds, throws,trips, breaks, grips etc.
    There's nothing knew under the sun as the saying goes.
    Wrestling masters of the 15 and 16 th century showed some pretty interesting and still relevant material.
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    Only relevant if you have transmission - most has been reconstructed. A low level HS wrestler will in all likelihood be able to offer more

    I love HEMA and the associated arts, but claiming it as prime SD material is questionable
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    No idea about Kendo, I don't know anyone who's done it. Fencing does have some transferable skills for sure, although the specialisation means that a lot needs to be unlearnt.

    Having used halberds, spears, swords of various kinds, modern and historic bows, tiny knives to large bayonets, palm sticks to batons to staffs etc. etc... I have to say that I think transfer of skills between weapons is greater than you seem to be suggesting.

    While I've not been to a HEMA club, I have crossed weapons and ideas with a group of guys who studied renaissance fencing (as well as dagger, lamp, cloak etc.), and I've studied Talhoffer's Fight Book and found many familiar techniques. Like Aegis says, it depends on the manuals you are working from; Talhoffer has everything from messer to clubs to unarmed against weapons to scarves.
    Cool, could you post a video showing some good Karate weapons training?

    Just to reiterate: I'm not saying HEMA is prime SD material. What I am saying is that the techniques are functional and the methodology is sound. That is a big head start compared to many MA's, and I really believe that studying something like Talhoffer would give more transferable skills to a SD curriculum than most Karate or Kung Fu classes. Of course, this belies the fact that in order to understand and teach historic manuals, you need the knowledge and skills to put it into action from other arts (but I would still contend that a very workable curriculum could be devised from the Talhoffer material).
  12. Morik

    Morik Valued Member

    In my (uninformed) opinion, training avoidance/de-escalation and running regularly (so that you can run away properly) is probably more bang for your buck if you are actually worried about being attacked, than learning to fight. Not that learning to fight under pressure wouldn't help, but my (again, uninformed) guess is that in situations where you can't avoid a fight through de-escalation/awareness/etc, a lot of the time knowing how to fight wouldn't help. E.g., armed attacker, multiple [armed] attackers, etc. (Where the best strategy, if you can't avoid, is to give them what they want, assuming they just want to rob you.)
    David Harrison and Hannibal like this.
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    Transferable isnt the same as applicable...skipping is transferable, but not applicable :)

    Having actually trained in both I would say the karate weapons i have trained in are more readily usable "as is" than HEMA from a tactical and accessible tools pov
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I wholeheartedly agree. At the same time, nothing wrong with a belt-and-braces approach ;)
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio


    Any video or leads to follow on good Karate weapons training?
  16. Simon

    Simon The Bulldog Admin

    While you can argue what the best art is you also have to understand what type of person you are.

    Are you the type of person who would drive someone's head into a wall should the situation call for it?

    If not that's fine, but you need to understand that beforehand. it's no good waiting until it's too late.

    Some people really fear the tiger inside of them and really struggle, even in class, to set it free.

    Others think the tiger will be there when needed, but have never trained it or even begun to get it under control.

    For me it comes down to training, rather than labelling.
    bassai, aaradia, Rataca100 and 2 others like this.
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    And some people struggle to keep it contained and need help taming themselves.
  18. Simon

    Simon The Bulldog Admin

    In a martial arts class I'd say the tiger is a different animal.

    I'm talking about the beast in us that will fight to protect, not someone who is angry and untrained.

    The later is the one more likely to get in trouble.
    Hannibal likes this.
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    When discussing the Tiger/Dragon choice Singh said my inner animal was neither amd said I was a Grizzly Bear

    Not sure whether that was a compliment or not.....:)
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Some people will do that naturally, but go too far because they don't have the technique to measure their response.

    It does tend to get them into trouble though. It's not just aggression that can get you into trouble, but a strong internal moral code can too.
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