Bartitsu?

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Combat Sports, May 25, 2013.

  1. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works Banned

  2. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Sounds like silly LARPing if that's your thing. In terms of practical fighting ability I'd go with judo in a tuxedo rashguard over this.
     
  3. Da Lurker

    Da Lurker Valued Member

    so, you lump HEMA as "silly larping"? they were also "reconstructed" from old manuals. ever sparred a serious HEMA practitioner?

    and by the way, 'whatworks', bartitsu was created from what barton-wright(the founder) learned from mabuni's shinden fudo ryu.
     
  4. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Who said anything about HEMA? The reconstruction of older techniques is not why I said it sounded like LARPing, but y'know, keep tilting at that windmill.
     
  5. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    As ever, it is always down to the people, more than the style. However I do believe that this art lends itself to LARPers by its nature.

    I actually was going to attend a demo (possibly joining in) near my area once, but when I did a little digging on the teachers it turns out that they were two low level Systema guys who were just dressing up and helping out the group as they had no real teacher.

    Waste of time.

    However, if there is a club that has a dedicated teacher who is training hard I see no reason why they couldn't be good.
     
  6. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    This brings up an interesting problem for those of us who are concerned about quality in the martial arts:

    Let us assume, for a moment, that complete documentation is available on this style. Given the break in the lineage, how can one then be considered competent to teach it again?
     
  7. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    External qualification. No differently from if there was no break in lineage- just because the former soke/head says the successor is the right person, until proven their competency should be taken with a pinch of salt.
     
  8. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    But the problem is that there is no lineage left. There are two different issues at stake here. One is competence in combat. That's relatively easy to test.

    The other is the authenticity of one's art in the historical context of the art. Just like someone can't just come out and teach something and claim that it's Wing Chun, for example, and expect to be taken seriously without being able to demonstrate a lineage that links back to a recognized figure in the history of the art. There is a thread on MAP about a reputed "Grandmaster", a Mr. Jae Jeannotte. The majority of the thread focuses, where it should, on his lineage and his claims to high rank.
     
  9. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    If they could demonstrate their techniques in a high pressure format, like say a kickboxing match, I'd take it more seriously.
     
  10. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    That proves it in combat. That's fine and dandy, but there is the question of "is it authentic Bartitsu"?

    This is a similar situation to that of modern spoken Hebrew, but there was a little more of a lineage there to follow. The language had essentially become extinct with no native speakers, but due to its connection with the religion of Judaism, there were plenty of non-native speakers who had a good command of the language. Is modern Hebrew truly the inheritor of the lineage of the Hebrew language? It's hard to know. From a strict linguistic standpoint, the answer is "yes".

    Is this modern Bartitsu truly Bartitsu? We will never know.
     
  11. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    I've been involved in the Bartitsu revival, and other HEMA before that, for a long time.

    Briefly, it's taken for granted that a "revived" MA is effectively a reinvention; the task is to get as close to the original art as is possible/practical, via careful research and then thorough pressure-testing of the original material.

    People with no, or very little, prior MA/fencing/etc. experience definitely have a hard row to hoe in attempting to revive an effectively extinct style, and under those circumstances I normally encourage them to join forces with more experienced folk, or to get serious training from an established instructor first. On the other hand, for people who already have the requisite skills and experience (typically via many years of cross-training in various MAs and combat sports) reviving an extinct style can be a rewarding long-term challenge.

    In the case of Bartitsu, yes, it absolutely does lend itself to steampunk LARPing (neo-Victorian costumes, etc.) and Bartitsu classes have become quite popular at steampunk conventions over the past couple of years. We tend to take these for what they are; fun "taster" sessions that may inspire some participants to become involved with the more serious, ongoing revival effort.

    The Bartitsu Society ( http://www.bartitsu.org ) has taken a radically "open source", experimental approach to reviving the art, encouraging anyone who has enough of an interest to start their own study group. These small "start-up" groups typically work from the original Barton-Wright material and often bring in established instructors to teach periodic seminars.

    The international Bartitsu revival began at the academic/historical research level around 2002 and then people started teaching experimental seminars at MA conferences, etc. around 2005. The proliferation of clubs and study groups has only happened over the past couple of years, spurred on by the success of the Sherlock Holmes movies and the steampunk fad. On that basis, it'll probably still be several years before we start seeing much martially plausible sparring in the Bartitsu style, though it is starting to emerge:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf7BaLR_L1g"]Bartitsu sparring: strike-only, thrust-only and freestyle bouts - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6XxSS8XI6U"]Bartitsu Cane Freeplay at Alte Kampkunst - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URDHyy5A-zk"]Roberto Martinez vs Jorge Pacheco - Entrenamiento Bartitsu.MP4 - YouTube[/ame]
     
  12. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I kind of think it's like the dilemma of any restorative work. Painting garish colors on Greek statues might not seem authentic, but it's probably closer to how the Athenians experienced their statues.

    If the rest of the art is dead, I don't think it really matters whether it's authentic or not. It's not like there's anyone out there this is discrediting. Whatever Bartitsu was, it was an offshoot of jujitsu, and we've got a ton of those still around. My guess is that it wasn't all that extraordinarily groundbreaking or innovative.

    Edit: Looks like MMA with a pimp cane! Are you guys affiliated with the original dude in the video?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2013
  13. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    It really was; the original Bartitsu Club was the first place in the Western world where students could learn Japanese martial arts, and Barton-Wright effectively created Bartitsu as a method of cross-training between jujitsu, boxing and the Vigny method of stick fighting.

    The Bartitsu Society is very informal as far as "affiliations" go; we all get along pretty well and everybody has their own take on the revival. Some are more self-defense oriented, some are more about the historical revival for its' own sake, etc.

    "MMA with a cane" is quite apt, though.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2013
  14. Da Lurker

    Da Lurker Valued Member

    then what do you mean by "sounds like seriously larping"? you answered this statement:

    to this post:

    (bolded emphasis mine)

    care to explain now?

    mine is easy. your statement, without specifics, just referring to the OP post, very vague and very dismissive. So that "reconstructed art" can refer to both Bartitsu and HEMA.
     
  15. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    He solicited comments about a video. I watched the video and listened to what the man in the video said, and it sounded like LARPing to me. The stuff Devon posted impressed me much more. What do you think of the original video posted?
     
  16. Da Lurker

    Da Lurker Valued Member

    a hobbyist trying to be cool. i've seen many martial artists from different arts do the same thing. majority of them when I asked around 'bout their background said the same thing: hobbyist.

    where I really focused on is the article, the part where tony wolf talks about reconstruction.
     
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    You can always post vids of your training too :)

    Mitch
     
  18. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Well, I think we're mostly talking past each other. I don't think that the videos Devon have shown look like LARPing. I also don't think that HEMA is LARPing. I maintain that the video looked pretty durn silly.

    I didn't realize Whatworks posted videos of his training. I wouldn't have been so frank had I known that he was in the video.
     
  19. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I don't mean it as a Grrrrrr CHALLENGE!!!1! dude, just that people on MAP are hesitant about doing so and I wish we weren't. Can't we admit any fallibility?

    Mitch
     
  20. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Yeah no worries. I was actually thinking about posting a thread when I go compete this year to try and get some critiques/comments. To be honest though, I feel hesitant to bring a camera to just a practice and say "Hey bro, can you film me getting sweaty with my buddy over here? It's for the internet." I'll warn you also that I'm really nothing special in the realm of grappling, and it would be a pretty boring thread :]

    Edit: I more felt bad and wanted to apologize, if that WAS Whatworks in the video. Should probably think about that when commenting on videos in the future.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2013

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