Ancient Hebrew biblical martial arts!

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by idols11, Dec 15, 2015.

  1. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Member

  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    By "accurate" i see you mean "same as before but with added denial"

    Clearly we have a very different definition of what that word means....
     
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  3. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Technique and training methods look laughable. History is fake. KSW at least has better uniforms. Thumbs down.
     
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  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Accurate, "You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means"
     
  5. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Member

    Greetings all,

    Thank you for your feedback.

    1) Actually, the information on our current Hebrew site and the English site is not the same as the previous sites. Performing a search on the internet archives will show that.

    2) Accurate, in English, means "correct in all details; exact." The information on both the Hebrew and English site correctly details what Abir Qesheth is and what it is not. Further, the history of the existence of Abir in ancient times and how it has survived into the modern era has been sourced on the Hebrew site. Since nothing has been provided to "prove" that the information provided on our Hebrew site is incorrect the statement "accurate information about Abir" is correct. What remains is the feeling that Abir is in-effective. We of course have no need to delve into that issue since that would of course be opinion of the various commentators on this forum to decide for themselves.

    3) Further, the site in Hebrew shows ancient Jewish sources detailing the fighting techniques found among both ancient Jewish armies such as the one from the 1st commonwealth, the one of the Hashmonaim, the the Jewish revolts against the Romans, and those found among Jewish communities such as those in Teiman and Dagastan.

    Here is one of many.

    שיר השירים פרק ג:ז-ח
    הנה, מטתו שלשלמה--ששים גבורים, סביב לה. מגברי, ישראל כלם אחזי חרב, מלמדי מלחמה; איש חרבו על-ירכו, מפחד בלילות.
    פירוש לרבינו שמואל בן מאיר (הרשב"ם) [ז-ח] הנה מטתו, היא מספרת ואומרת אל הבתולות בשבח אהובה, הנה תפארת גדולת ידידי בכך שהוא שוכב על מיטתו כמיטת של שלמה המלך. וגיבוריו מלומדי מלחמתו, כל אחד חגור חרבו על יריכו, והרומחות אחוזות בידיהם לשומרו בלילה, כדרך מלכים הנשמרים על מיטותיהם כאשר הם ישנים, כענין שאמר דוד לאבנר 'ולמה לא שמרת אל אדניך המלך', ואומר 'לא טוב הדבר אשר עשית חי ד' כי בני מות אתם אשר לא שמרתם על אדוניכם', ומה הוא שבח בנין היכל מיטתו של אהובי.
    פירוש רב אבן עזרה [ז] "מטתו שלשלמה ששים גבורים" – כי היה שלמה המלך הוצרך לגיבורים רבים שישמרו מטתו.
    פירוש לרש"י [ז] מגבורי ישראל – מיוצאי הצבא לבד הפתיחים מבן עשרים והיתרים על בני ששים.

    פירוש דעת מקרא על [ח] – "מלודי מלחמה" מאומנים ומנוסים במלחמה.

    4) The new site also provides information (הסכמות) in Hebrew from Rabbis and Jewish scholars concerning the existance of Abir Qesheth within certain Jewish communities. Again, we know this information is not relevant to the culture found in the western world but it further proves the point made on our site that we are not talking apples to apples.

    We actually agree with you guys that Abir Qesheth is not a "martial arts." Also, agree with you that Abir and its training methods that we chose to put into video form are not appropriate for those who do not live in this part of the world.

    One last point to prove out what I mean. Someone stated earlier that the word Qesheth only means a bow in the Hebrew language. Being that Hebrew is our language we know the ins and outs of it a bit better. Actually, there are a number of "Jewish" sources that state that there are times when the word Qesheth in certain ancient Jewish texts is talking about more than a bow. See below.


    תלמוד בבלי מסכת עבודה זרה דף כה,א גמרא
    שמואל ב:א ויאמר ללמד בני יהודה קשת הנה כתובה על ספר הישר מאי ספר הישר א"ר חייא בר אבא א"ר יוחנן זה ספר אברהם יצחק ויעקב שנקראו ישרים דכתיב בהו (במדבר כג) תמות נפשי מות ישרים ותהי אחריתי כמוהו והיכא רמיזא (בראשית מט) יהודה אתה יודוך אחיך ידך בעורף אויביך ואיזו היא מלחמה שצריכה יד כנגד עורף הוי אומר זו "קשת" ר"א אומר זה ספר משנה תורה ואמאי קרו ליה ספר הישר דכתיב (דברים ו) ועשית הישר והטוב בעיני ה' והיכא רמיזא (דברים לג) ידיו רב לו ואיזו היא מלחמה שצריכה שתי ידים הוי אומר זו "קשת" ר' שמואל בר נחמני אמר זה ספר שופטים ואמאי קרו ליה ספר הישר דכתיב (שופטים יז) בימים ההם אין מלך בישראל איש הישר בעיניו יעשה והיכא רמיזא (שופטים ג) למען דעת דורות בני ישראל ללמדם מלחמה ואיזו היא מלחמה שצריכה לימוד הוי אומר זו "קשת".
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
  6. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Ehav4Ever, please note this is an English speaking forum, so please only post in English.

     
  7. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Member

    Greetings Simon. Sorry for posting against the rules. I posted the two sources in Hebrew because I assumed based on two previous comments that it was being insinuated that no Jewish source in Hebrew exists for Abir Qesheth. Further, another person claimed that a word in the Hebrew language only had one meaning and not several others. If I challenge his knowledge of the Hebrew language as lacking what means am I allowed to use to prove that my abilities are not?

    Also, another question I have is what standard does this forum have for determining if we Jews had a historical system or method of military and fighting instruction? Are ancient Jewish sources reasonable methods? Are actual ancient Jewish texts? Am I allowed to post pictures of ancient Jewish texts to prove my points? Thanks in advance.
     
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    The poster who made the statement about the definition of Hebrew words has been banned (first fail in observation skills ;) ).

    I don't think anyone here has the expertise to talk about ancient Hebrew historic sources, and I'm not one to talk about the historic possibility of a martial art.

    However, I think everyone here is able to see that patty-cake sparring, arm-hanging knife defences and demo's contrived to make the teacher look like he's in a scene from Taken do not equal a deadly art.





    Giving the benefit of the doubt as to the history, it looks as if any feedback system for efficacy has been lost over time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
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  9. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    It's simply not martial arts training. It's theatre and dance - as is often the case.
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I dont doubt for a second there were ancient Hebrew martial arts

    I dont believe for a second this modern reconstructed pile of steaming and ineffective crap is it

    The two points of view can happily co exist
     
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  11. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Member

    We would agree with you that Abir Qesheth is not a "martial art," as we state on our official site.
     
  12. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Member

    Again, only a person who knows Jewish history based on ancient Jewish sources would know the answer to your first statement.

    In terms of your second point about what is in-effective we have no problem with your personal position on two videos, with minimal information in them, that we did not produce ourselves.
     
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Show me the instructor lineage for 3 generations

    This is not the same art as whatever went before

    Vikings had martial arts - that doesnt2 mean Stav becomes validated

    1. Ancient Hebrew martial art existed
    2. They vanished
    3. ????
    4. This crap appears
    5. Profit
     
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  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Is that a nogi cross collar choke with no attachment points and therefore no muscular connection?

    I doubt that would work on anyone standing, maybe from mount if you outweighed them a lot.
     
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  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Is the habbani youtube channel not official? Is this guy not the main instructor?

     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Its a fairly standard "i don't know what the hell I am doing but i saw this in a book once" choke
     
  17. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Member

    Thank your for your clarification about poster who made the claim on Hebrew words. The casual viewer would not see any information pointing to said person being banned. Besides, even with the person being banned the in-accurate information they posted is still visible; still allows scrutiny I think.

    I agree with your statement that so far no one here has the expertise to talk about Jewish historic sources, whether in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Judeo-Arabic simply because that would require knowing how to read and understand those languages and having access to the information.

    Besides, in the two videos you provided I didn't see any sparring. I saw movement exercises no different than BJJ drills, 52 hand blocks movements, or silat drills but definitely no sparing in them. Other than that you are correct. We did dull down the efficiency in video form. It is a cultural part of living in the Middle East to never truly show one's hand.

    As mentioned before, the official Abir-Qesheth proves out what has already been mentioned here and that Abir should not be classified as a Martial Arts.
     
  18. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Member

    Greetings. The Habbani site is not our official site. One of our instructors is featured in the videos. All videos, were made to only show a minimum of what we do. Again, our purpose is not to compete for the title of being an accepted martial art. Our full syllabus was only shown when it was presented to the Wingatte Institute here in Israel. Much of what we allowed to be presented online were basics or movement exercises. Since we further are not ring orientated our focus is towards Jews who either know Hebrew or know the basics of it.
     
  19. SCA

    SCA Former Instructor

  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It's written under the posters name and avatar. You must be a very casual observer! :D
    Fair enough. I don't make the rules about English-only posting.
    Ah, I see. So this guy, who is presumably a son of the Maatuf-Dohh family, is deliberately showing bad mechanics, poor balance, hesitation and general ineptitude so people don't realise how good it is?
     
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