OK,thanks much for the info.Just a history guy,was going to ask if you'd known Myles MacVane,one of the "bums".Spent 11 years w/him.He's still very good friends w/William,his first teacher.I later studied w/Stanley's student/Tok,Seng-gins'(Malaysia) disciple Robt. Tangora.He's really good,something I don't say lightly.Real bangers,Tok's crowd,Yue,Shu-ting's line.Liked the rice bowl comment.Ain't it the truth.Sorry I brought JZ up.Thanks again. Doc