Question regarding TKD Forms

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Rataca100, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    Could someone who has done TKD, preferably GTUK (like myself) Run thrugh the use and meaning of each of the forms?

    I have got a TKD Form book and i was looking through it wondering what is the practical application and such for most of them and i cant comment as i am still a white belt. As apossible extention how does these compare with Karate ones?



    Unrelated one, what is the diffrence between Tang Soo Do and TKD? I know there is one, but i dont know what it is and what the main diffrences of them are, lack of research this is. No better place to ask here. The question randomly came to my head last night, would one be closer to Karate or somthing like that?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2017
  2. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    It's a slightly more complicated question than it might first appear to be :)

    Some people are of the opinion that the TKD forms are intended purely as a performance that demonstrates skill, precision and control. They may be right.

    Some people are of the opinion that as the patterns are basically chopped up karate kata, whatever the intended purpose of the forms, one can still work with them to go back to the combative principles contained therein. They may be right.

    Some people think Gen Choi designed them completely independently with no karate influence, and they were designed as a blue-print for fighting. They may be right.

    Nah, just kidding, those people haven't a clue :D

    So, in terms of practical application, you can look at the TKD people. Stuart Anslow who is here on MAP has written extensively on this, and I found him an excellent and enthusiastic instructor when I hosted him, for example.

    You can also look at karate people, so John Titchen here on MAP has written numerous books on the subject which are all excellent. Iain Abernethy is also well regarded in this field, and there are others too.

    As for the differences between TKD and Tang Soo Do, there are many, and your starting point will have to be what type of TKD you do, because there are different methods of power generation, movement, etc etc. These differences can be so pronounced as to almost make different branches of TKD look like completely different styles. My TKD patterns, for example, look nothing like ITF patterns, even though we are actually performing the same patterns.

    I think many would agree on a sweeping generalisation though, that Tang Soo Do is closer to the karate roots of TKD (if you believe in that) in terms of its movement, and it uses karate kata rather than TKD patterns.

    I hope that helps, and I'm sure others will have different opinions too :)

    Mitch
     
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  3. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I literally (sort of) wrote about this very subject over on my book review blog.

    Warning - the post I'm linking to contains a wee bit of strong language.

    Ch’ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul

    Get the book. It's fantastic.
     
  4. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned




    The mysticism in the first bit. :p


    The one i do is a GTUK one, and i think tis more form and sport based as the teacher does sport things a lot and coaches. He self confessed that he didnt do enough comabt/self defence based things though as part of his teaching when he did a self defence class. Dont have enough experience to note on it, jsut the aptterns in the book i got looked more like for sprituality and and fitness and didnt look combaty. Dont deny one of the black belts could probbly hurt me, but then a lot of them do it sport wise and probbly get a more combat/hitty based training than me. *shrug*

    (one of the reaosns i may like soem karate's better or Tang Soo Do. They seem like they focus msotly on practical forms for either training or use. )
     
  5. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    Going to look into it.


    Double post as i jsut saw the muilti quote after i wrote above. XD
     
  6. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    That's not mysticism at all, it's just acknowledging that it's a complex situation. There is more than one TKD, there is therefore more than one reason for doing patterns and more than one meaning to them as a result. Almost none of them do the patterns purely for combative purposes.

    But then, karate is the same. The differences between the styles is enormous, and very few have any real idea of bunkai.

    Tang Soo Do is the same, it's just old TKD using karate kata, learned from people who often had no idea about bunkai, by people who had no idea about bunkai.

    Mitch
     
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  7. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    To be brutally honest, I never really worried about using techniques from the patterns for 'practical applications', although some are pretty clear, like blocks and strikes. The whole idea of dissecting a technique from a TKD pattern and reverse engineering it (usually by changing it) to make it fit a practical application seems to be the 'long way around'.... far better to just learn practical techniques in the context of practicality rather than jump through hoops trying to find it.

    However, Stuart Anslow's books on TKD Hae Sool are probably the best out there and well worth the time to read, try out, play with, and develop.

    That said, I see lots of value in patterns, especially in learning the rhythm, footwork, reciprocal body movements, and such all within a set pattern. When you watch students move up the ranks, you see certain expected improvements at each pattern (and see those improvement filter back to previous ones). As a good friend of mine used to say as well, 'If you are looking for a home study course for Taekwondo that doesn't require a partner, practice your patterns."

    For my own preference, I like to see pattern done like GM Hee-il Cho does them... take a look on Youtube if you've never seen him do a pattern with full speed and power...
     
  8. SCA

    SCA Former Instructor

    As an aside, while TKD may have some roots in Karate, Karate itself also has roots from Korea. Japan has a long, sordid history of invasion and occupation. Sumo wrestling and the Samurai are about the only things that can be considered truly Japanese in a martial art context.
     
  9. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I hear this sometimes, but I've never seen any evidence. The timeline seems quite clear, as does the experience of Gen Choi and the make up of the ITF patterns, but I'd love to hear evidence to the contrary, it's an interesting area of study.

    Mitch
     
  10. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I think the only people who care (or should care) about whether TKD is exclusively Korean in its origins are Korean nationalists insecure in their sense of self-identity.

    One of my favourite TKD fables is the inclusion of Taekkyon in the former's creation; Taekkyon quite clearly is nowhere to be seen in TKD. o_O
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    In my opinion, TKD is pretty much a direct offshoot of Karate. That said, I think the founders have done a very good job of turning Tae Kwon do into a truly Korean art, with the differences in the sport, patterns, and such. I think today's TKD is truly its own art, much more than the TKD of the 1950s, which was more 'Kong Soo Do' or 'Karate'.

    .

    For a while there was a lot of talk (at least in Korean martial arts circles) about some research done by a Korean scholar who made a decent case for a Paekje invasion of Japan and tied in cultural diffusion from Korea of certain martial traditions and ideas... making a case for Korean martial arts traditions being the earlier influence of the Japanese martial arts traditions that later return to Korea to become TKD (and HKD). If I recall, the research was pretty interesting, although many saw it as more of a nationalistic take on trying to make KMA the influence on JMA, rather than the more commonly accepted opposite view. I never quite bought the whole idea but the articles were fascinating

    Hong Wontack (Professor) is one of the leaders of this thought... you can check out his writings here: ▒ 홍원탁 교수 ▒

    Yes, and General Choi Hong-hi caused a bit of this when early on he implied there was a strong Taek Kyeon connection. In later interviews, he said that he had only learned a 'movement or two'.
     
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  12. SCA

    SCA Former Instructor

    Mas Oyama was from Korea. :D
     
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  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think there's something to be said for Taekwondo influencing Karate in terms of high and spinning kicks after the 50's/60's but not in the initial formulation of karate from earlier times (and even that could be more down to Funakoshi's son rather than TKD).

    Actually I think the legacy of taekwondo is very strong and, if handled correctly, can inform quite a wide range of training (wider than a lot of modern TKD is taught or trained).
    There's the obvious Okinawan Karate influence (many/most of the basic blocks, punches, kicks and strikes and other "traditional" movements can be traced back to Okinawan Karate). Therefore the "DNA" is there to look into the close in, grab and smash, pattern applications and dirty clinch fighting that seems to be what the original kata are about.
    There's the Japanese karate influence where Karate became more athletic and dynamic with an emphasis on self improvement (physical as well as mental). From here we also get the grading structure, coloured belts, etc.
    Then we have the coming together of Taekwondo in the Korean military and the rise of sparring competitions. From here we get a fast and aggressive sparring style that emphasises quick footwork, in and out movement, long range kicking and fast blitzing punches.
    There is also the encyclopedia of Taekwondo, and other writings by Gen. Choi and other pioneers, that includes joint locks, throws, fighting from/on the ground, self defence aspects, boxing style punches (Hee Il Cho has been teaching boxing style drills and punches since the 70's IIRC) , etc.

    If people truly embraced these multiple threads of influence you'd end up with (or could end up with) a fit and hard as nails fighter that's a quick and dynamic out-fighter at long-range, a brutal "grab and smash" clinch fighter, someone that can throw or joint lock when the opportunity is there and also able to defend themselves from common HAOV and fight back and get up if knocked to the ground. Or someone could focus on one aspect and still be said to be doing "Taekwondo".
     
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  14. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    Since there is a large group who think it may be difficult to impossible to decide whether any modern Taekkyon includes the original art which many consider completely lost to history any claim of having some part of Taekkyon as part of TKD is just as plausible as not.
     
  15. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    If anything, that just strengthens the argument against TKD containing any remnants of true Taekkyon. Biomechanical differences between these two arts aside, even a casual observer will recognise that much (if not most) of TKD's content was reverse-engineered Shotokan.
     
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  16. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    Since there is a large body of though concluding ancient Taekkyon was lost to history any modern Taekkyon bio mechanical differences have no bearing on the issue.
    With regard to "TKD content' whatever that means being "Reverse engineered" Shotokan, however you use the reverse engineering label, it would be no different than Shotokan reverse engineering it's root arts of Shorei, Shorin, or it''s root Shaolin. Each builds on it's predecessor.
     
  17. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    [QUOTE="


    Yes, and General Choi Hong-hi caused a bit of this when early on he implied there was a strong Taek Kyeon connection. In later interviews, he said that he had only learned a 'movement or two'.[/QUOTE]

    I would be interesting in reviewing your source for this.
    "he implied there was a strong Taek Kyeon connection."
    Certainly they are qualified terms, but i would like to research it more.
     
  18. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Well, they do have a bearing on the issue because there have been claims that TKD was built on a foundation of Taekkyon, but there is little to no similarity between the two. Such claims are therefore misleading or entirely false.

    It means Gen. Choi took what he learned from Shotokan, mashed it up a bit, and gave it a Korean name. This is probably an oversimplification, but Karate's influence on TKD is oftentimes grossly understated (or even completely absent) in the marketing copy for a lot of TKD schools. It really doesn't bother me personally. I just think prospective students should be given full disclosure about the origins of the martial art they're signing up to.
     
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  19. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I would have thought you have been in the game long enough to acknowledge Choi's claims. They're well documented. Google is your friend.
     
  20. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    I acknowledge he recounts being sent to a calligraphy teacher as a child and being introduced to Taek Kyon techniques by that teacher.

    "At the age of 12.... young Choi's father sent him to study calligraphy under Han Il Dong .. was also a master of Taek Kyon... The teacher concerned over the frail condition of his new student began teaching him the rigorous exercise of Taek Kyon to help build up his body."

    If you want to agree with Thomas and characterize him recounting this experience as a 12 year old as having "implied there was a strong Taek Kyon connection." All 6 lines (I only recounted the relevant portion) in his 15 volume text in that manner that is your right.

    I would have thought you have been in the game long enough to abandon rash generalizations. BTW Google also says I'm a french model.....
     

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