Personally I don't have much time for the whole internal bit. I like the first bit "intention leads..." but the next two are one and the same if you ask me. I don't like the idea that "Qi" is somehow seperate from the biomechanical aspect of generating force. Though my understanding of such matters is simplistic. i.e. it seems to imply that that somehow you generate "energy" and then that informs the strength/dynamics (in a physical sense) of the movement. when in reality it's all synapses and muscle fibres and so on.
http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/columns/columns_power.html I quite like this analogy but I don't think it quite matches up with 'Mind leading intention, intention leading Qi, which brings forth jing'.
Internal aspects of Kung Fu and power As ever informative and interesting CFT however I (like Tartovski) am also a tad sceptical about the whole internal thing; to those who know me, it will come as no surprise my saying this. I don't have a problem with such things as focus, concentration, intent, and I believe there can for example be a disconnection between the actions of the mind and the physical application of a technique, including the generation of power if they are not working together. But as far as power goes, I remember there being very clear, and persuasive explanations for this even as far back as my Physics lessons in the 1970's. Potential and Kinetic energy, force, acceleration, speed, weight and impact can all be scientifically explained. I'm not dismissing the whole internal thing, wouldn't want to be thought of as blinkered but I am also sceptical.
I personally don't practice qigong or any of this internal stuff. Theoretically I am sometimes convinced by some descriptions, but otherwise I must say I am a sceptic too
Given that I'm a big supporter of those crazy things like "Science", "Reason", and "Logic" I will dismiss the whole internal thing as a completed outmoded way of thinking about power generation. If someone wants to provide me with a decent evidenced based explanation of how internal aspects can influence power above and beyond the brain telling the muscles what to do - i'd be happy to listen.
Ok i'm not arguing against your point just so you know but something i am unsure of at the moment. In physics i learn't about energy and energy transfer. How can the muscles generate this energy into eg. A punch. Or is it all ATP and stuff? Ging works on kinetics and can be explained scientifically but when hit energy is transferred...is this energy physical? I'm guessing you know the answer but if any physics masterminds post on this forum don't be shy.
hmmm, im a wee bit of a sceptic! due to me being a sports scientist type person, everything we did in uni biomechanics and physiology explains how muscles work to create energy which in turn creates forces which in turn creates the desired output. biomechanics involves physics to explain optimum body movement for a desired output. a stronger muscle = stronger contractions = faster movement = bigger force output = hard punch. Knowledge of how to punch properly heightens the effectiveness of the punch (biomenchanics) a trained stronger muscle coupled with knowledge of technique = harder punch coupled with repetition & conditioning = harder punch. Knowledge of physiology and the body's weak points coupled with the knowledge of you're now trained punch = people being knocked out, dropped, broken ribs etc The way I see it that our 2 cultures explain the same things, just in different ways, the western way explains it as "science" and the eastern way describes it was this "mystical" energy that produces the results. I know that last bit is a very raw way of describing it but i dont want to write an essay. I think the best way is this We (the west) call it science, the east calls it chi. my final point, who are the best punchers in the world? Yes, boxers! Do you see champion boxers doing chi kung training and stating that its the chi doing the work? Or is it the hard graft training that they do each and every day coupled with the knowledge of great coaches that gets that killer blow perfected!
I'd disagree with that. I think it's safe to say that the eastern way USED to explain it like that, but now they too have adopted science. i.e. you don't get many mainstream oriental doctors in hospitals trying to use "chi". That's nto to say there isn't a booming alternative medicine culture there. I'd also argue whether the word "explains" is a little over the top. Chi *tries* to explain how it works, but i'm nto sure it succeeds.
at the risk of confusing it all.. OK maybe what we are discussing is more around what does each type of energy form do? I think that, although a sceptic re the mysical descriptions, you can look at energy generation more than one way. Muscle contraction of the action being performed etc gives you the direct (?) external form of energy ie the muscles of the shoulder /arm etc generating a punch. Different, ?indirect vectors? of force are produced by body movements that summate to produce more power than the muscles of the arm/shoulder would have produced by themselves. You don't have to do slow training to be internal... there are internal arts that ae quite dynamic (hsing yi, aikido, etc) Maybe it is more about the proportion of forces that are generate by direct action rather than through indirect action. example the novice boxer might have a strong punch and produce lots of snap via his arm/shoulder. The pro is able to shift his weight into the punch and make the hitting power much stronger. the novice kf guy throws too much arm/shoulder... the more experienced would be using more of the stance shift/trunk rotation through multiple joints etc to power the punch rather than just arm power alone. So the hard stylist and the boxer can generate force in a more 'internal' manner by becoming more relaxed and being able to add more momentum/torque and by increasing the amount of foce summation to generate the total impact of the blow.. thats one way you might look at it...fwiw hey if I am waaaaay off in describing the boxer , well I don't know sh*te about boxing... just a thought. :') powchoy
i am a firm believer that science and oriantal mysticism are simply two way of looking at the same thing but maybe neither have all the answers. the use of chi in martail arts in the form of dim mac is pretty well known, which even if you are not a believer leads onto the accupressure and and accupunture the second or which at least is a proven science and relates to paths of energy that flow throughout the body, this may be connectied to major blood vessels or the flow of red blood cells or contentration of them, but either way it works. western science uses technology to focus blood in certain areas for healing and i have seen a demonstration of a western boxers being able to punch harder after being shown an eastern techique which did nother more complicated then force more blood tot he arm. the mind over body aspenct of using chi could be explained n exactly this way using the bodies own chemisty i.e endorphins and red blood cells to creat power pushingthem to the right area to make a punch more effectinve int eh same way that easter martial arts masters can make certian parts fo there body harder probably through the same way. most people have seen some kind of freak show where a man cuts himself and stops the blood flow to that area as the mind is pretty much in controle of every thing tha tappens in the body but for most of us it is governed sub consciously so they simply focus their minds to take over the process consciously i am not really a firm believer and agree with tartovshi with not liking the chi being seperate to the body bu then i ahve done meditation that relies in the focusing of the idea that energy is entering the body and flowign to the right parts of it so regardless of whether that is happening or if it is just a tool to ger the desired effect i do not know but it works
1) obviously, both of them have the same goal and that is to understand the body, it just happens two different roots have been taken. In the east all the traditional medicine (from diff countries) is very similar, different cultures have developed this idea the same way therefore these acupunture points must be true since in traditional indian medicine they are the same as in chinese medicine etc. 2) is your demo from mind body kick ass moves? lol. Don't forget the guy who sucks up his well you know what. 3) Again a logical point, the unconscious part of the bodies process is controlled by one of the two nervous the parasympathetic one i think, anyway through certain brain activity we could logically alter it since the body will adapt to any change put on it, however i don't think it could ever become a fully conscience process. 4) Don't forget meditation causes a shift of alpha waves from the pre occipital regions of the brain to the pre frontal lobes (i think) or something like that. Meditation has been shown to induce experiences which are down to temperol lobe epilepsy, western science can explain much of that. However i do not agree with tartovski, i think tartovski is wrong, chi is there, it exists, lets face it. Like you said ' it works.'
Well, no system has *all* the answers, but the scientific method will give you much better answers, based on much better data and backed up. Yes, dim mac is pretty well known for being complete and utter rubbish. As for accupunture being proven by science - yes and no. Accupunture has been shown in trials to give an effect greater than that of a placebo. however (And this is VERY important) so does randomly sticking needles into a person, completely ignoring the meridan lines - which kinda shows the idea that you have to know all the chi stuff is nonsense. That is nonsense. See above as to why. Also, jsut because an idea is popular, doesn't make it true. have you thought that the poitn might be the same as they come from the same route? I can explain my computer works by "electric gremlins", that works - but it doesn't make it true. As for "Chi Exists"? Really? In what form that can't be explained by other means? Can you measure Chi with a chi-meter?
Train Qi Gong with a capable master, try to feel chi, try to understand it...then come back and tell me it doesn’t exist. It is nothing more than energy, the traditional concept has been portrayed very mystically...it isn't, it doesn't give you magical powers but something is there in the form of chi. Indian medicine and Chinese is very very similar, they may have had the same source although unlikely since in china the concept dates back near 3000 years i think and man it would be very hard to cross the Himalayan mountains to get from India to china or vice versa in that time period.. But i do not know however they have developed there knowledge independently even if they did have the same source and today show remarkable similarities. Oh but maybe it is due to chance, a pure freak coincidence...People in India just happened to be thinking the same as people in china...because this is what generally happens init.... I’m not here claiming chi is a life force, but something is quite clearly there. Explain shi yanzi's iron body? or why certain masters can 'heat' up parts of there body upon thought and oh yes boy there has been studies on that. Chi should and if properly attempted to will be explained by western science one day, science is factual evidence in the west..and something is there, be patient and we will know what it is. Chi may well have indirectly been explained scientifically..just we have missed it, i for one can logically accept chi in relation to how my body is run and i too can understand how the mind influences it just as it influences the rest of my body, my nervous system etc. You said this about randomly sticking needles into acupuncture points, how about striking them? They are very sensitive and it does hurt, please try it. Anyway electrons can orbit around the nucleus of an atom, planets can orbit the sun, magma can orbit from the hot depths of the earth to the cool surface and back, students orbit around the energy field of their teachers, dude even i orbit around the laddiiesss...why the hell can energy not orbit around ones body? Blood has its pathways, oh you must be thinking but when i take a sharp blade and slit my wrists because the pain of my life is unbearable...they bleed i can see my blood, use your senses feel the chi! It is energy in our bodies and it has its pathway, Freud talked of sexual energy..Libido and man Freud was a G. His work is controversial but he understood we have some form of energy, something is there it just happens it goes by the name of chi!
In relation to the martial arts. A discussion of internal (nei) is not necessarily a discussion of qi (energy) . internal training methods re. ma should be all there is in this discussion. qi gongs fall both into nei dan and wei dan categories. The distinction between nei (internal) and wei (external) is mental and physical. The power that internal martial arts training methods are geared to maximise, make most effiecient and exploit to the fullest is kinetic force and its transfer rather than muscular force (though this is used - added to borrowed and kinetic force). Of course it is all explainable by science, as well as experiential language. Whatever the hell floats your boat.. When it comes to personal training though it is your first person experiential view that matters more. Your intuition. Understanding empirical details is nice and gives a broader understanding - a different view that itself can be beneficial to augmenting theory and practice. But the training methods are already there, already sound and produce results in practitioners body. What does it have to do with fighting, if you can feel it you can do it - screw the math! Knowing that firing of neurons and synapses are doing this or that is not how you feel things. The language of the training new or old English or Chinese is to help and guide training - feeling inside, not for telling objective statements about the outside world. To touch on a few things re. training in CIMA Training of sung and root are the foundation. Methods should be stressing the following elements: Integration of mind and body; yi leads all. Devoloping sung. Bodily allignment, stacking weight. Moving from centre of gravity. Sinking of our weight in harmony with gravity (led by gravity) from the centre, through the most sung body possible. Channeling outside force into root. Through "rooting" kinetic force is generated and chanelled. Listening and borrowing force are other "internal" skills - why? because they rely on using mind and mental skills first rather than physicality and strength (li) to produce and acheive them. Internal training methods have different emphasis and focus.
Acupuncture has been used and found to be effective in a wide variety of clinical trials, up to and including providing anesthesia for surgery. Meridians and points have been accurately mapped, and Acupuncture needles cannot be randomly stuck into the body, they can be randomly stuck into mapped acupuncture points, but they will not penetrate the skin to any depth at random points without causing pretty severe pain. Purchase a few three inch Acupuncure needles and try this experiment on yourself. You don't believe in chi and don't have time for the internal bit... Okay. It's no one's job to convince you or prove it to you. Good luck with your training.
i have to admit i am way out of my depth with a lot of this terminology but i think i know what is being gotten at, i have understood for many years that for the body to do something the mind has to be able to imagin it happening first, training in martial arts is not just about training your body to be able to perform these feets but training you mind to know you can do them, and progressing can often be a case of mind over body. there are of course certain thing that anyone can do without mental focus or even phisical training, and of course the body can only go so far so quickly an untrained body cannot do what the mind wants it to do, but even a trained body will only go so far without focus, insight, and a clear idea of the desired goal, this is built up naturally through dedicated training, but martila artist and atherlete, eastern or western alike, they know that without the right mental training they will never achieve what they desire. internal training and chi training is a way to push the body further
internal is basicly, movements generated by relaxed muscles, not meaning slow, but relaxed, in wing chun the body is conditioned to be relaxed, through breathing, if you are relaxed you can develop more speed there are no opposing muscles and if you are relaxed you more sensitive, speed is generated by rotation, whipping, twisting movements, rather than tension of muscles, flowing energy from the body, this is why meditation is so important, so you can reach the point of awareness to express your body, qi on the other hand is real, the diaphram creates a force by massaging the organs and power is generated in a electrical form, dont believe in qi, meditate and you will find it, its like when you work out with weights you use the power of your breathing to lift the weight, with chi you just keep it inside you, so instead of expelling the power it gathers to a point or allover and you are as solid as a rock and produce tremendous power! jing is defined as the skill used to produce power, example the jkd lead is long jing the power comes at the end instead of the begining, the essence that little something that makes it effective, every different way you hit has different effects, the way the energy travels that is jing!
