[Choi Kwang Do] Choi Kwang Do Instructor Replies

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by allisonralph, Oct 30, 2003.

  1. allisonralph

    allisonralph New Member

    Before I reply to Captain moomoo`s comments I would like to introduce myself : My name is Ralph Allison ( no nickname used : I have no fear in saying what I`m sayin ) . My martial arts experience stretches over 20 years starting when I was about 9 years old . I started with Judo inspired by my older brother who was a county champion in my native Germany . I trained in my teenage years with my friend who was a Karate black belt in his personal dojang and then had a break since I moved to the UK and was looking for a good style I could identify with . I trained in the UK with (then ) Master Leon Jay ( now: Professor Leon Jay - same title as Grandmaster ) in Small Circle Jiu Jitsu which was invented by Grandmaster Wally Jay known to be one of the few martial artists deeply respected by the late Bruce Lee . I also trained with Master George Dillman on various black belt seminars and since 1990 I trained in Choi Kwang Do having the priviledge to train on many black belt and instructor seminars with "Dojunim" ( translated : The Founder ) Grandmaster Kwang Jo Choi . I had various write ups in martial arts magazines and was on the cover of " Tae Kwon Do & Korean Martial Arts " magazine September 2003 . In the same month I received an award in the " Combat Hall of Fame " for my dedication to martial arts . I know the identity of " Captain Moomoo " and - although I respect him as a human being and martial artist - I was sad to hear some of the points which I thought were rather unfair ( I told Captain Moomoo in my personla e mail to him that I was going to be as"direct" as he was ). FIRSTLY : he states that many CKD practitioners aren`t " up to scratch " in his opinion . WHY is it then that so many Tae Kwon Do Masters ( his favourite style ) are flocking towards CKD ( in the last few months ALONE TKD Master Rangle USA , TKD Master Stamps USA and Kung Fu Master Baron UK joined our organization ) . EVERY YEAR we have masters from different styles joining us ............and there is a reason : Despite Captain Moomoo`s ( will call him CM now ) assertion that there is " no harm " ( health-wise ) from the traditional styles I can say I personally KNOW FOR A FACT that people get physical injuries OVER TIME when doing the lock-outs AND THESE INJURIES ARE PERMANENT unless one does something about it . If I quote one of the Masters who recently joines us ( Master Stamps USA ) " ...I have been in Tae Kwon Do for over 23 years now and had my own academy for 10 of those years . I had a Hip replacement , ACL replacement and VARIOUS OTHER INJURIES through the use and ABUSE OF TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS " ( see Master Stamps statement on CKD International guestbook USA ).
    About the grading fees + system : Firstly I do not feel that £20 is too much for a grading . You can hardly go out "on the town " with that ; if you cannot sacrifice half the cost of a meal for two in a restaurant then perhaps you do not value a grading . I spent ( from my personal money ) several thousand pounds ( yellow pages , Thomsons local directory , equipment , hall costs , other advertising etc.etc. ) in my last year and I can assure you that I am not in profit . Now that the school is running great I will reduce on such costs and look forward to paying myself back what I have invested . Also : the belts system SHOULD be subdivided in my opinion - in this way it is easier for the practitioner to learn I have found .
    I can understand that CM feels bitter about having been expelled - but I am afraid it was your own doing . You cannot just walk into a martial art system and demand that they change things according to YOUR individual needs without even awaiting feedback from the WHOLE community you are in ( you were not the only teacher in CKD ) - you cannot change the grading system which was devised by Grandmaster Choi just because you decided that this SHOULD be the case . If you went to work for a company ( in ordinary life ) and you would refuse to obey the director`s instructions you would not last very long . CKD has given you many opportunities but you did not take them . I know that Grandmaster Choi is not only a great martial artist ( in fact he is a legend in his own life-time ) he is also a FANTASTIC HUMAN BEING ! In other words : if you saw the " error of your ways " and appologized to The Grandmaster for your willfull behaviour I have no doubt that he would welcome you back to ( what The Grandmaster calls ) " The Choi Kwang Do Family " .
    Different people look for different things : I do not judge a martial " artist" by how high he can do a jumping kick - FOR THE STREET YOU NEED POWER AND SPEED - and CKD has all the requirements for that . If I wanted a more artful style I might as well go into ballet ( hey it`s a joke , right ).
    Yes , CM - I believe you MAY have offended many CKD practitioners out there and if you require testimonies about different martial artists from "traditional styles " who suffered PHYSICALLY from it after a PERIOD OF TIME ( we`re talking 15 or 20 years ) the I can furnish you with these if you don`t believe it .
    I`m afraid I`m not going to get into a " heated debate " about this now although I feel quite passionate about CKD . I simply have not got the time since I rather spend my time promoting my own school ( Sutton Choi ) and another one comming up . Furthermore I do not wish to offend other styles ( or people ) even if I believe I have solid proof for all of the above .
    PIL SUNG ..........and be happy !:D :eek:
     
  2. stump

    stump Supersub

    <<<My name is Ralph Allison ( no nickname used : I have no fear in saying what I`m sayin ) . >>>

    Welcome aboard - good for you, but thats not the reason people use usernames
     
  3. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Hi Ralph,

    Welcome to MAP.

    It's a pity you've joined the board in such circumstances.
    This is a place where people learn about their differences, and then learn from them.
    I hope you choose to take part.

    Andy Murray
     
  4. allisonralph

    allisonralph New Member

    Thanks Andy , I`m a bit busy promoting CHOI at present with another school opening soon - I`ll tune in when I can . You`re equally welcome to comment in my guestbook . Pil Sung !
    Ralph Allison
    www.choikicks.com
     
  5. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Hi Allison,

    Thank you for your very complete initial post. :)

    As always we are ready to hear all opinions from all experiences and ranges of martial arts. Please let me make it clear though, that no matter how committed you are in your convictions - not every one is going to share them and you just can't convert peoples opinions in one post. All the Moderators have at one time or another have explained this to a member at some stage on this forum.

    Please, I also ask that you do not "SHOUT" so much in your posts. This can be considered aggressive and perhaps highlighting things in bold or italics using the same font would be more appropriate.

    I can see that you have thought out and responded to almost all the remarks presented by CM and appreciate your feedback. I do look forward to more posts from you on CKD and any other art you feel you can contribute too.

    I guess I have posted this particularly worded post as CKD tends to get a little "rough" debate on here and previous threads on this matter have been deleted by the person who presented the argument in the first place to avoid any further confrontations. I am not trying to prevent you from any discussion in this field - but going by my previous experience I just wanted to stem any possible problems that may crop up :)

    I will happily look at your website and sign the guestbook too :)

    Melanie
     
  6. allisonralph

    allisonralph New Member

    ThanX Melanie ( my name`s Ralph by the way - Allison is the surname ) ; I understand your point of view and look forward to your contribution in the guestbook on WWW.CHOIKICKS.COM

    Live long and prosper -or - in other words : PIL SUNG ! :Angel:
     
  7. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    From one CKD instructor to another, Welcome to the forum Mr Allison. My name is Paul Jones & i instruct in Cardiff alongside Mr Richard Shepherd & Kate Jones.

    We have had some very heavy debates on CKD ways of training, more or less getting nowhere. Personally I love CKD, it has it's faults(as does EVERY other art) but i am willing to accept them & work with my students towards being as good as they(& I) possibly can be.

    I find this forum very useful, as a place to learn about the martial arts community & the arts & artists within. We debate all manner of things.

    Again welcome. PIL SUNG!

    morphus
     
  8. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member



    Hi Ralph,

    Welcome to MAP. This particular subject has been debated at some length on this forum. First off, I agree with you that locking out joints such as the knees and elbows (aka hyper-extension) when striking causes long-term damage. This damage may not be apparent immediately but it is cumulative. However, as someone who practices what you may call a traditional martial art (TMA) I can assure that neither I, my teachers, or my students practice this sort of thing. Yes, it was a common feature of the late 20th century interpretations of TMA's. But there are many people currently training and teaching who avoid this practice. Not only have I met many 'traditional' martial artists who avoid hyper-extension it has become apparent that many of the practitioners on this forum do not hyper-extend either. So your generalisation about TMA appears to be incorrect. I'm sure there are still plenty of practitioners who do hyper-extend but there are also plenty that don't.

    I've discussed this issue with several of the CKD practitioners on this forum. On being informed that I do not hyper-extend one of them suggested to me that even going near to full extension (without actually reaching it) has been found to cause joint problems. However, I asked for some evidence of this hypothesis. No evidence was forthcoming.

    So the bottom line is that hyper-extension is a harmful practice, but there are many TMA practitioners who don't do it. So to tar us all with the same brush is inaccurate, unfair and quite simply a misrepresentation of the truth.

    Mike
     
  9. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Another of my contoversial posts...

    The one question I have is why the hell can't CKD promote itself without comparing the damages in other arts???

    Stand up on your own damn feet! :D

    |Cain|
     
  10. allisonralph

    allisonralph New Member

    Quite funny really : seems I caused a "stir" ! If you take the time to speak to very experienced physiotherapists ( I know one of the top physios in the country who can verify my statements ) ..............and chiropractors ( my own reference is Dr Van Der Walt who has written several articles in magazines ) then you`ll reach your own results . If you wish to take a chance that`s fine by me ; I have enough students and don`t need to "convert" anyone. I did not mean to hurt anyone`s feelings and - as stated before - have no time and ( I believe ) enough courtesy not to get into heated arguments .

    So : smile

    Live long and prosper -or- ................PIL SUNG !

    ;)
     
  11. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    I'd like to answer that Cain, if i may - When CKD was launched officially in 1987 there was a big movement of TMA's that did the lockout techniques, i remember this for myself doing karate. Being a Master of TKD Kwang Jo Choi developed a system that was SO different to TKD that it could no longer be recognised as TKD.
    So it was advertised as being that different & made a point of the differences, highlighting 'no locking' (amongst other differences) being better for the practitioner, this is where the FACT that these lockout movements was first pointed out, no-one(hardly anyone - just to cover myself) had ever said such a thing before.

    So it WAS originally advertised & articulated as better for the practitioner than TMA's in general.

    TMA's being a lot of karate, TKD & SOME Kung Fu styles.

    A lot of martial arts caught on to this pretty quickly & some not so, but they did catch on. The reason some changed was directly because of what was being said by CKD. CKD was growing & getting popular, that worried some styles.
    Things have changed, no doubt most arts now acknowledge what CKD have always said, so now CKD does not look so radical.
    In short CKD was ahead of his time in a lot of ways, one of which is this particular subject.
    CKD today in advertising & articles mainly focuses on health & fitness practices that are positive for the practitioner & tries to eliminate anything negative training - It's a way.

    There are other ways of training yes, if you want to win a UFC don't come to us, BUT you would miss out on some rather special info' & training that you would greatly benefit from no matter who you are or what style you do.
    My personal way of looking at it is you haven't tried it, & heard the lectures of Kwang Jo Choi first hand, then you don't know.

    I'm sure there are points to argue with, but don't take what i say too literal. As an art CKD can be extremely flexilble if you don't take every word as literal. Find the way via the art, not in the art.
     
  12. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    I think Choi's responsibility in recognising some known problems is to be applauded.

    All I'd add is that he was not alone in doing so.

    In 1987 and before, I was involved in a TMA which was already aware of the problems of locking out against empty air.

    It's just that we didn't advertise it, or change the name of the style as a result.

    Sadly, I believe there will always be MA schools run by underqualified people.

    Hopefully, forums such as these, with discussions on appropriate training methodology may serve to spread education across all the arts.
     
  13. Terry Matthes

    Terry Matthes New Member

    Why not? Didn't he do the same to create CKD? By this example shouldn't CM just be able to call what he does MMA with a base in SKD, or perhaps (to follow kung fu) give it some obscure name such as "Crouching Lily style". :D I think you see what I'm getting at.
     
  14. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    For the record, I have trained in martial arts since 1984. I hold a 1st Dan in Shotokan Karate and have also trained in Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu JuJitsu and Iwama Ryu Aikido.

    I have recently started practising CKD and come into this forum with no strong opinions but would like to make some comments and observations to contribute to the various discussions on CKD based on my experiences. The reason I practise CKD is a bad one, convenience! I live in quite an isolated part of Scotland and there are no other striking forms of martial arts clubs within a reasonable distance. I would state, however, that apart from what I believe to be a slightly obsessive nature to the CKD instructors with respect to their art (willing to travel to Argentina and New Zealand to grade!) and hero-worship of GMC (Grandmaster Choi) they are genuinely nice people and give good instruction. I did see GMC on his recent visit to the UK and he is a very competent martial artist but I would also comment that have trained under equally as impressive (may be better?) professional martial artists both in the UK (the late Keinosuke Enoeda 9th Dan JKA Karate) and Australia (the late Jan de Jong 9th Dan JuJitsu).

    As a slightly more worldly-wise martial artist I am not taken in by some the hype surrounding CKD - whether it is better than other martial arts, less harmful to the joints etc. My measure is whether the techniques are effective and if they are taught well. My answer to this is, on the whole, “yes”, BUT with I would state that some of the techniques and combinations taught to beginners are in my opinion too advanced. For this reason I have observed a few of the graded members of the club where I train to have (in my opinion) quite poor technique and I would agree in part with Captain Moomoo in that some of the CKD black belts are not what I believe a black belt martial artist should be. Although slightly tedious, I have a strong belief that martial arts should be taught starting with the practise of single techniques, slowly developing to more complex combinations. The white belts in the CKD club where I train are given 5 technique combination drills including both kicks and punches. This is way too much for a beginner and I believe this breeds poor technique from the start. When I was a Karate white belt (9th kyu) I would have been elated if my instructor gave me a 2 technique combination to practise!

    On a final note, probably one of the worst things I have seen associated with CKD has been the very public and childish rantings of Marshall Pereira (2nd to GMC and CKD Senior Master Instructor 6th Dan) and Roger Koo (ex CEO of CKD, founder of Koo Self Defence in the US). See the following web links if you haven’t seen them before:

    http://ksdi.net/resign.htm - Roger Koo’s resignation from CKD in 1991

    http://www.roger-koo.com/ - site set-up by Marshall Pereira to disparage Roger Koo’s claims

    Given Marshall Pereira’s very senior position in the CKD organisation it is disappointing to see him react in such a way. Presumably this guy is first in line to succeed GMC as head of CKD international – food for thought?
     
  15. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    Thankyou Scaramouch for the link, i have seen the KSD site but not the the other, i shall be reading every word of the second as i have the first in the past.

    I feel similar to you that some practitioners/instructors can be over the top in their show for the love of the art of CKD.

    I too saw Grandmaster Choi recently, did we perhaps meet??:)

    Send me PM if you wish to discuss anything, anytime.
     
  16. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Some of the other criticism that I've received from Choi is that the techniques and combinations at white belt are too simple, I guess since its been roughly equal in both directions we're probably striking a fair balance on that.
     
  17. allisonralph

    allisonralph New Member

    ...............the longer you do it - the more you love it ( I see nothing wrong in that ) !

    WWW.CHOIKICKS.COM
     
  18. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor

    If their teaching white belts 5 move combinations then they are not following the syllabus. The only combination i can think of for white belt is outward block, inward punch.

    Who is your instructor?
     
  19. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    I suspect the combination is the substitute speed drill that some instructors use to avoid having to split the class. In which case it would probably be front inwards, rear inwards, weave, rear inwards, rear leg front kick step through and turn.

    Not technically a white belt combination, but it does allow them to join in speed drills, which is especially useful if the instructor doesn't have any AIs to look after them while the rest of the class practices speed drills.
     
  20. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Isn't it true these problems were also reflected in the way sports science evolved?

    And how many people adopted safer training methods whether MA related or not?

    Its not really fair that because my MA is a TMA to assume it has the same problems TKD had in the past.

    Also I don't beleive there was ever the same problems associated with Wing Chun, but I have don't many "warm up" exercises that are now classed as damaging.
     

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