I don't know if a blanket statement about an organization can be made. Some schools are really good. Some are really bad. Many are somewhere in between. When I looked at different schools in my area, trying to make up my mind about where to train, I saw the full spectrum. One school had an up front, one time black belt fee that you would pay. I didn't see many high belts, but many beginners. I don't train there. I also saw a school that had regular testing regardless of how often you attended class or where you were in your development. I saw many black belts that the instructor said had only been training three years. I don't train there. I went to another school where the instructor trained as hard as the students, the black belts were very obviously skilled, everyone was sweating bullets, and the atmosphere was very positive. I've been there for about 9 years. My point is that it didn't matter to me what the art was, what associations or federations they belonged to, or what lineage the teacher came from. The quality mattered most at the school level.
You know all those cool character development bonuses people associate with MA and which are promoted as being a componant/benefit of your art? They come from hard work. If you don't achieve grade you are not being punished... you are being done a favour. Everyone is capable of achieving proficiency in their techniques/martial arts irrespective of outside commitments. Everyone where I train has a personal and professional life outside the gym but they all train hard to their own personal best and make improvements. We achieve rank when we are good enough. Everyone is there to get better at the skill set and make incremental improvement in their own technique, that way when rank is achieved it holds actual meaning and actual value. Also, you owe it to your students to be honest with them about what they know and what they can do. If you allow them to think they can fight/protect themselves because of their undeserved belt that they half arsed for and which you gave them because you wanted their cash, then I hope you will feel sufficiently responsible when/if they catch a beat down. Then how do you account for all the solid martial arts schools that include anything from hobbiests to amateur/semi pro/professional fighters, still maintain standards and teach full time from professional facilities? Look at the way the BJJ community is policed and how standards of rank are maintained... it's gyms aren't exactly suffering for students are they? You run a McDojo, that's your choice, but don't attempt to justify it by saying it's either that or becoming a martyr for your art.
Not sure, you may have me mixed up with someone who has a school i dont. I am a businessman and i am a business adviser....... Im calling out what makes good business sense. You want a living, you want a life, you want your passion to be your job. You have to make certain concessions! Like i said before i wish you could have both, but i dont see it as realistic. You have to keep in context the student.... cant just have 1 blanket rule that they must pass to get to the next level, are they professional, semi pro? hobbyist? looking to stay fit? looking for something to do outside of home? the big one..... are they capable of much more? You start failing people because they cant meet an undefinable standard then there will be no/very little new students...... Word of mouth is big. I can tell you the school im currently at 70% of the students i would say are there by word of mouth. Put it in a business way... What product are you selling? Ferarri Or Ford. Ferarri sells a few units, makes a profit, does ok. Sells excellence, a premium brand. Ford sells huge numbers or cars, biggest manufacturer in the world. Sells something for everyone. (ignore actual profit figures for the year)
No, I assumed that you were a school owner from the content of your post sorry. What about the evidence to the contary? Which I mentioned in the post you replied to. I already stated that this is irrelevant in the post you replied to. Irrespective of the students time committment and goals they should be working as hard as they can towards proficiency. If someone works harder and they put in more hours, or are more naturally gifted, then they will progress faster. You get out what you put in. What makes you think standards are undefinable? The only way standards would be undefinable is if you started promoting people of vastly different ability levels to the same rank. Word of mouth can be a double edged sword. If I hear of a club that's essentially a MCDojo I'm going to steer well clear and rubbish them from the perspective of quality training to anyone who trains MA or expressess an interest in going there. On the other hand if they have a rep for high standards and quality coaching I'll do the opposite. Like I said in my post which you replied to, it's perfectly viable run a club to high standards and be financially successful. The evidence is all around you. Forming a club where training doesn't require hard work, where people are placated and pandered to with belts and delusions is going to get you money. Forming a club with high standards, solid competition records, physically capable students is going to get you money (maybe not as much or not as quickly but money all the same). You are just pandering to two different demographics. I know which I'd rather be a part of. In response to your edit - solid training with actual standards does have something for everyone. It just won't suit the lazy or people who just want belts. Plus I covered this in the post you initially replied to.
For a moment there Shibby, I thought you were going to say "...you may have me mixed up with someone who..." gives a sh!t!
What about the idea of applying: 'Pass', 'Pass with Credit', 'Pass with Distinction' to promotional tests then?
While .I see the merit in having compassion and that there are exceptions to every rule, I really want to know why the Dr Spock ideology that has infected our whole society to the extent where individuals are not accountable for exerting effort, in the last year my instructor has had many students, as his club is at a college and a credited college course he gets a whole spectrum of society- male,female,going,old, varying racial and socioeconomic demographics but I have only seen one or two that actually needed exceptions because of difficulty, most can do well but the ones that don't, don't because they aren't willing to work, some only show up sporadically, some like three or four now still have a white belt but have become ready to test but haven't joined the organization. My point being that I think a lot of the fault comes down to the instructor, every four months my instructor takes a new batch of people w no ma experience and exposes them to excellent foundational ma skills, basics are beautiful!
To continue...I ran out of room...there is another school in my area that went from wksa to moo sool won, that instructor also runs a quality school, has compassion for his students but also makes them work, he promotes people that show up and learn and does not promote people that show sporadically, how can you honestly say you are giving your best effort if you don't even bother to show up regularly? If you aren't willing to hit the bag outside of class or practice simple drills and kicking, if you don't work on your forms or at least shadow your techniques if you don't have a .partner, how can you blame it on anxiety from tests, or an inability to learn?
Hi, K-G. Yeah, despite *Thanking* Shibby!'s post (#23), I had problems with that particular statement as well. This works fine in theory, but when arbitrary TIG restrictions are put into play, it all goes to hell in a handbasket, IMO. Unfortunately, "putting in more time" than the next guy doesn't allow a sooner promotion date, in many TKMA orgs. And since the criteria is SUBJECTIVE (unlike in arts such as BJJ), there is no recourse for this inequity. :bang: This is also where I feel your comparison to such businesses (meaning MA studios), falls apart. You can't DIRECTLY compare the financial achievements of what's done by a place that teaches MA and promotes via "pressure-tested" standards, and one that doesn't. It's as plain and simple as that.
Color belt promotion requires minimum two hours a week for three months, that leaves .many hours for improvement outside of class, if.someone can't give up a couple of hours of tv a week in order to better themselves whose fault is that? If I take a college course and get an f on an exam because I didn't study the professor doesn't change it to an a out.of sympathy for me
:topic: OFF-TOPIC :topic: To me, an asterisk {*} looks more like an "o", and so sh*t=shot, IMO (it does work for b*ll*cks, however). OTOH, an explanation point {!}, especially when inverted, does resemble an "i", and therefore you can circumvent the forum's built-in censorial measures, if using this device instead. Here's the proof: sh¡t :evil:
Some people may not consider the following to be a fair comparison. For myself I think it is. I have been teaching Hapkido for a little while now and that includes both as private classes and those at the local Community College. People in either classes get tested, but it is about the college classes I would like to speak. In these uncertain economic times, people have been coming back to school in an effort to develop their marketable skills and that includes developing a decent GPA along with a broader knowledge base. I know that there are teachers who advance pupils who have not truly developed the skills intended to be developed in a particular class. The rationale is that these students did their "best", meaning they did as well as they may have been able to do at the time. In the immediate sense this seems like a very Humanistic and compassionate thing to do. In the longer perspective these individuals are having to go out and compete against others who may not have gotten a "break" but were actually expected to know what they took their education for. Further, should that first person finally land a job, their ability to provide the best possible performance to their employer will begin at a lesser level than their better educated co-workers. One of the responsibilities that really sucks for teachers is having to bear the bad tidings that "student XYZ" didn't cut the mustard and needs more work. Worse yet is having to tell someone that despite all of their dreams and hopes and efforts they simply are not performing up to the set standards. It sucks. I know it sucks. And, I'm telling you it never gets easier no matter how many years a person teaches. But nobody is getting any good service from being advanced when they can't do the job. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
I agree Bruce, having been in the military, gone to college, and other life activities it never gets any easier when yourself or someone else fails and has to be told, I guess the most important difference is how it is handled, thus is where I think the compassion belongs, one doesn't have to be an insensitive jerk when giving a person who has failed some activity or test the bad news.
Yep.... and there is one other bit that tends to get overlooked and that has to do with the manner in which people teach. BION there are still people teaching----many, many subjects----- who still take the view that its their job as a teacher to "rule-out" so-called "bad performers". In other words, these folks I am talking about take the view that they present people with information and then test the students to cull-out the folks who didn't make the grade. I'm not sure who first came up with this approach but I can pretty much guarentee that its played no small part in many folks hating and fearing school. The university that I went to started its history as a "Teacher's College" and I think that heritage still permeates a lot of what they do. As a result there was always a sensitivity to being a good teacher regardless of what the department was about. I think thats why I have the view that I do. I approach my classes as a person who fully intends to challenge the student. The goal is for them to walk out of my class having learned something more about themselves. (Yes, I use Hapkido, but I could just as easily be speaking about Math, or Science, or Business. ) The idea is that I present them with challenges and help coach them in determining the best course of action to succeed with the challenge. Sooner or later they should be able to do this for themselves and they don't need my coaching anymore. Testing is a part of this but only so far as the test tells me what skillset needs work and what seems to have been absorbed pretty well. Anyhow, thats one person's way of doing it. Best Wishes, Bruce
There are two very real answers. 1) if said person has had this accident prior to reaching a higher belt, then they should not be advanced. You simply cannot teach a move that you could not a some point in your life perform. People learn by example. If your example is a power point slide because you yourself can't do the back flip, doesn't work. The person that can perform the move but not explain it can learn to explain it since that is more of a 'learning how to teach' thing. 2) if said person has had this accident after reaching a higher belt and they have already demonstrated an ability to perform the required moves, then it is a different story. Then they get what it really takes to perform the move. Not just the 'talking points' behind it. You can't ever truly KNOW something without being able to have done it at some point.
My instructor has a real easy personable manner, he gets people there by setting them at ease and with humor. I like this approach, it is easierto gather support and respect when you encourage people to do well and by setting an example then by other means.
What you have to remember is that when a student is coming into a school they are there to learn. Yes physical attributes are important but knowledge is utmost. If they can tell you not just the basics but the name of the joint you are attacking what angle you are using, how much pressure is needed, and then watch it and tell you if that person is doing it correctly or not and how to correct it that needs to be rewarded. Maybe in a different type of recognition.
NO, other schools that do not teach Kuk Sool. we have several schools in my area that will sell a black belt and that is all they want to do.
I gotta disagree with you, C-V, and I think I'll use Helen Keller as my example. She never learned to read, per se (being blind), but was a prolific author nonetheless, and was also considered a powerful communicator despite lacking the "language skills" that you & I enjoy. :bow1:
